I'm going to see to Wesley, see if he's still whimpering.

Giles ,'Chosen'


All Ogle, No Cash -- It's Not Just Annoying, It's Un-American

Discussion of episodes currently airing in Un-American locations (anything that's aired in Australia is fair game), as well as anything else the Un-Americans feel like talking about or we feel like asking them. Please use the show discussion threads for any current-season discussion.

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Susan W. - Sep 18, 2002 5:50:17 pm PDT #68 of 9843
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

Now that I think about it, just about every author I adore from that generation--Lewis, Sayers, Tolkien, etc.--has at least one issue and/or authorial tic that makes me roll my eyes when I encounter it. I guess it's an individual comfort zone thing. F'rinstance, I get more annoyed with Tolkien than Lewis over gender issues, because the women and girls in the Narnia stories are a heck of a lot more well-rounded and important to the story than the ones of Middle-Earth. Not that that's stopping me from awaiting The Two Towers film with bated breath; it just annoys me a little.


Theodosia - Sep 18, 2002 6:20:03 pm PDT #69 of 9843
'we all walk this earth feeling we are frauds. The trick is to be grateful and hope the caper doesn't end any time soon"

Truly, the past is a different country.


Trudy Booth - Sep 18, 2002 11:04:51 pm PDT #70 of 9843
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart

I consider it to his credit that his views improved with time and experience rather than stagnating or worsening.

Yep, that is the interesting thing about Lewis. Whenever he ticks me off I remind myself he was a conservative who grew broader rather than a liberal who shrivled as he aged.


Typo Boy - Sep 19, 2002 12:33:05 am PDT #71 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Let's give CSL credit - but also remember that he can't completely blame his time. After all H.G. Wells lived in the same period and managed to be a feminist, a humanist, for labor against capital and an all around good guy.

And Oscar Wilde, and maybe George Bernard Shaw (although managing to speak favorably of Stalin and Hitler at the same time loses him some points).


Trudy Booth - Sep 19, 2002 12:41:10 am PDT #72 of 9843
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart

Not just of his time, but his class and upbringing as well.

I'm amazed he did as well as he did.

People who did even better simply floor me.

The other day I was trapped in a conversation with a 70 year old family friend who was being more racially divisive than I'd ever put up with from a peer. I found myself thinking, "I can't wait 'till I'm 70 and can give ANYBODY what-for".

Reminding myself he was relatively progressive for his day only helps so much but it helps.


Typo Boy - Sep 19, 2002 12:49:40 am PDT #73 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Yeah, but don't give him too much credit for his day. My late father who would be around 73 if he were alive to day never fell for any of that stuff, pro-labor, feminist, anti-racist, enviornmentalist - and still managed to be Macho. OK, my Dad was exeptional. but like I know a couple around my parents age - Italian American married to a Japanese American. And they lived in Washington DC in the 50s and had to conceal the fact that they were married because it was illegal in our nations capitol. And if they had to drive South for any reason, she had to ride in the back and pretend that he was the Chauffer. And when they stopped they had to stay in "Blacks only" hotels who would overlook her being white, and take seperate rooms. And know that when they sneaked into one anothers room, if they were caught by the house detective they would be arrested and then probably lynched. And yet they managed to overcome all that; an Italian American of that generation was given tons of racist conditioning which she managed to overcome.


Trudy Booth - Sep 19, 2002 12:58:03 am PDT #74 of 9843
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart

My Grandfather (well, all my grandparents, but I'm thinking of the pulpit-swapping with synagogues and black churches in the south grandfather in particular) as well. Progressive thinkers didn't just spring from the ether in 1961.


Typo Boy - Sep 19, 2002 12:59:35 am PDT #75 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Exactly - you can go all the way back. There were Catholic priests who tried to save American Indians from being slaughtered by Columbus. So no one gets too much of a break for being too old to know better.


Daisy Jane - Sep 19, 2002 1:03:12 am PDT #76 of 9843
"This bar smells like kerosene and stripper tears."

The difference, to me, in deciding whether or not to make allowances is the degree of malice I find in their views. Whether or not it comes from hatred or ignorance.


Trudy Booth - Sep 19, 2002 1:04:16 am PDT #77 of 9843
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart

Not a complete break but a little lattitude... the family friend IS thinking outside the box he was given, but it's a teeny box.

And he also gets the "deals with individuals fairly" chit. He may make broad statements about "the blacks" or "the hispanics" but he's a respected mechanic who treats his customers and employees of all backgrounds well. He's the guy bussing was invented for-- hard to diss the folks you know.