Let's give CSL credit - but also remember that he can't completely blame his time. After all H.G. Wells lived in the same period and managed to be a feminist, a humanist, for labor against capital and an all around good guy.

And Oscar Wilde, and maybe George Bernard Shaw (although managing to speak favorably of Stalin and Hitler at the same time loses him some points).

Not just of his time, but his class and upbringing as well.

I'm amazed he did as well as he did.

People who did even better simply floor me.

The other day I was trapped in a conversation with a 70 year old family friend who was being more racially divisive than I'd ever put up with from a peer. I found myself thinking, "I can't wait 'till I'm 70 and can give ANYBODY what-for".

Reminding myself he was relatively progressive for his day only helps so much but it helps.

Yeah, but don't give him too much credit for his day. My late father who would be around 73 if he were alive to day never fell for any of that stuff, pro-labor, feminist, anti-racist, enviornmentalist - and still managed to be Macho. OK, my Dad was exeptional. but like I know a couple around my parents age - Italian American married to a Japanese American. And they lived in Washington DC in the 50s and had to conceal the fact that they were married because it was illegal in our nations capitol. And if they had to drive South for any reason, she had to ride in the back and pretend that he was the Chauffer. And when they stopped they had to stay in "Blacks only" hotels who would overlook her being white, and take seperate rooms. And know that when they sneaked into one anothers room, if they were caught by the house detective they would be arrested and then probably lynched. And yet they managed to overcome all that; an Italian American of that generation was given tons of racist conditioning which she managed to overcome.

My Grandfather (well, all my grandparents, but I'm thinking of the pulpit-swapping with synagogues and black churches in the south grandfather in particular) as well. Progressive thinkers didn't just spring from the ether in 1961.

Exactly - you can go all the way back. There were Catholic priests who tried to save American Indians from being slaughtered by Columbus. So no one gets too much of a break for being too old to know better.

The difference, to me, in deciding whether or not to make allowances is the degree of malice I find in their views. Whether or not it comes from hatred or ignorance.

Not a complete break but a little lattitude... the family friend IS thinking outside the box he was given, but it's a teeny box.

And he also gets the "deals with individuals fairly" chit. He may make broad statements about "the blacks" or "the hispanics" but he's a respected mechanic who treats his customers and employees of all backgrounds well. He's the guy bussing was invented for-- hard to diss the folks you know.

FWIW, my shiny new tagline is CS Lewis--but it seemed appropriate to the new board.

(For posterity, "Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... It has no survival value; rather it is one of those things that give value to survival.")

Mr. Lewis, meet Richard Dawkins. Mr. Dawkins meet C.S. Lewis.

Snerk! Gar is right; it infuriates me when people say things like "but everyone was anti-Semitic then." Well, no they weren't. Just for a start, an awful lot of Jews weren't anti-Semitic. (Some were, of course.)