The Reavers, said to be modelled upon the Old West’s more bloodthirsty Native American tribes, remain phantoms in “Firefly.”

Hmm - it is worth remembering that the Old West's more bloodthirsty American Indian tribes were fighting to recover stolen land. Not that it excuses the rapes and such, but more Indians were victims than were victimizers. And also belonging to such tribes was not generally infectious. The tribes considered themselves nations, not races, so it was not unknow to admit outsiders to membership. But it was not common either (except sometimes for children). So, being apache was not considered infectious.

Is it possible that in drawing these historical comparisons, Joss does not know any actual history? I thought he was a lit major of some sort, which usually involves learning some history as well?

Typo Boy -

you actually just hit on some stuff that was bothering the heck out of me and why I ultimately knew the distinct parallels with the Old West would be unacceptable at some point.

I'm not going to make assumptions just yet but at this point, I'm skeptical.

le nubian, I have similar problems with the whole reconstruction thing too. I know it is not our reconstruction, but the slogans and feel of it is too much like one commonplace idealized version of our recontruction. I'll wait and see though. It is not irretrievable yet - but if he is really doing, post-civil war American West with inner planet imperialism=reconstruction, and mad cannibal reaver = American Indians, I am so outta here.

I think the old west FEEL is what they are going for. In other words, Joss in not trying to retell American history within the confines of this show, instead he is using these events as a thematic springboard for this show. So the reavers are *like* really bloodthirsty tribes (I think certain other parts of some plains tribes would be applicable) in that they inspire huge fear, they enjoy doing that and that they travel around deliberately causing damage, but they aren't telling the story of any specific tribe.

Matt, it's what I'm hoping for myself, to be honest.

What Scrappy said. Whedon is doing exactly what he did with BTVS - playing with the conventions of a genre. The Reavers may occupy the same space in the Firefly world as "bloodthirsty savages" do in the traditional Western, just as the Independents function as "Confederate soldiers who are starting over on the Frontier". None of that indicates anything about Whedon's attitude toward Native Americans or the Civil War. Whedon is simply using the framework and stock characters of the Western genre to tell his story.

They may be like orcs from LotR or the Magogs from Andromeda.

But I don't think Joss will have a big glowy dark lord be an organized evil directing their activities.

River seems to have an extreme mystical sensitivity to them, which maybe hints at something more? Or just a plot device?

I think Joss is merging the western theme of "blood thirsty savages" with the freaks from Road Warrior/Mad Max or the Morloks from the Time Machine.

The Reavers have strayed from civilization and lost their humanity. The 13th Warrior was on TV last nite and that film deals with the same themes. A culture that does not view its self as human and preys upon human civilization.

I don't think that exact parallels, old west settlers vs. native, can be drawn.

Especially considering how, in space and on newly-terraformed planets, there is no such things as 'natives'. At best, there's the conflict between we-were-here-first, leave-me-alone wildcatters and the legally-endowed, dominant-paradigm-perpetuating settlers. And cowboys-and-schoolteachers is a worthwhile conflict to study, but it doesn't carry the same connotations of racial/cultural conflict as cowboys-and-Indians.

OK-- so who has read the pilot and wants to talk?