Errr, I'm not disputing that Spike has killed. I'm saying that Angelus displayed a greater level of cruelty - specifically citing his treatment of Dru as my main evidence of this.

They've given us Holtz's family and the Jenny Calendar mise-en-scene as well. It isn't an issue for me. I mean, if two man-eating tigers are chewing through villages, do I hate the one that makes pictures with entrails more? I just want them both dead. The sheer scale of the killing that they both have done means they are monsters of the same degree to me. My view is also that in all those numbers, given his being a demon and all, it is pretty likely that Spike has indulged in some pretty horrific torture, it just hasn't been necessary from a plot perspective to show us, unlike Angelus.

As for the writers missing me with the pay off for the entire Connor arc ... I think you can blame the acting as well.

Last season the show was all about Wes for me. And I think that the acting, even moreso than the writing, was responsible for that.

Oh, you mean Big Dave. Well, I get that, but I tend to partition how I feel about the characters/writing and the performances. I think Marsters is pretty spiff (when he isn't chewing the countryside) but I don't get why Spike is not dust, my issue. Wes/Alexis, I agree totally. Wes and Lilah were a real highlight of last season for me, and I enjoyed last season quite a bit. Giles and ASH were always a big part of the appeal of BtVS for me, and I agonized over how they let the character slide into unrecognizability, instead of giving him some fresh vitality. Wes and Alexis fill that gap somewhat.

To get on topic for a second, I'm not a fan of peanut butter cookies. Actively dislike them. I like peanut butter, I just don't think it is dessert. I'm big on cookies (tea and biccies is a survival ritual, not an indulgence), but the whole peanut butter thing passed me by.

My view is also that in all those numbers, given his being a demon and all, it is pretty likely that Spike has indulged in some pretty horrific torture, it just hasn't been necessary from a plot perspective to show us, unlike Angelus.

They made so much noise about the terror that is Angelus, and even the power dynamics in the Fang Gang seemed to reflect that he was more horrible than the others, that I assumed that the lack of evidence for Spike being equivalent (or perhaps comparable) was because he wasn't. Not that he wasn't more savage than the average bear, just less so than Daddy.

I mean, if two man-eating tigers are chewing through villages, do I hate the one that makes pictures with entrails more?

You shouldn't hate the tiger at all. Most of the time when a person is killed by a wild animal it is either because the human encroached or because the animal is unable to hunt its normal prey. I always feel very bad when a bear is shot because a hiker went and got themselves mauled.

The sheer scale of the killing that they both have done means they are monsters of the same degree to me.

See, I disagree. What Angelus did to Dru was worse than killing her.

My view is also that in all those numbers, given his being a demon and all, it is pretty likely that Spike has indulged in some pretty horrific torture, it just hasn't been necessary from a plot perspective to show us, unlike Angelus.

Ah. For me, if we haven't seen it in show or had it referred to, it didn't happen.

I always feel very bad when a bear is shot because a hiker went and got themselves mauled.

The bear? Not so self-aware. The crippled hiker? Pretty self-aware, and now with torn up parts. Vampires? Self-aware and tearing up other members of my species. Less cute than bears or tigers. Threat must be squashed.

See, I disagree. What Angelus did to Dru was worse than killing her.

Yeah, I guess, since it included making her a vampire. Which Spike did to his own mother, something even Angelus didn't do. Which is worse, the mass-murderer who kills ten thousand people and tortures one girl or the the mass-murderer who kills ten thousand people? The stuff Spike has done (and beating many many people, then sucking their blood out so they die painfully doesn't get any fluffy bunny awards in my book) doesn't get him any rungs on the ladder over Angelus.

For me, if we haven't seen it in show or had it referred to, it didn't happen.

Fair enough. We can just stick to the canonical murdering/bloody swath. That's plenty for me. That Angelus is a little more kinked than the other guy with the chainsaw fangs not playing with his food while he slaughters across Europe, Asia, America doesn't really weigh much in my book. Note that the Watchers all know him, all refer to him especially. That one woman had done a thesis on him. There is the whole "spike" thing, referring to what he did to his victims. I think there is definitely some implied special nastiness in all that attention, not that there needs to be.

Yeah, I guess, since it included making her a vampire.

I'm not including that. I'm talking about killing her entire family, impersonating a priest in order to convince her that she was evil, driving her mad.

Which Spike did to his own mother, something even Angelus didn't do.

No, but he did kill his entire family.

Which is worse, the mass-murderer who kills ten thousand people and tortures one girl or the the mass-murderer who kills ten thousand people?

The first, in my book. Though neither of them are up for sainthood. Unless they did said torture and slaughter in the name of The Church.

The bear? Not so self-aware.

Right. So you why would you hate it?

As for vampires, people are food for them.

As for Spike, I've maintained for ages that there is no way he should have made it through season 5 undusted. That being said, his character, up until he got a soul, was a very interesting exercise in evil and good and all the steps in between.

I'm not including that. I'm talking about killing her entire family, impersonating a priest in order to convince her that she was evil, driving her mad.

See, that? Not as evil as making her a vampire in my book (which comes with free murder attached.), except for the killing the whole family, which is more of the mass-murder is bad theme.

The first, in my book.

The same, in my book. Once you've killed more than a couple of people, you're pretty much in the "must be permanently removed from society" category, and as vampires aren't subject to human justice, that pretty much means dustage.

So you why would you hate it?

I didn't say I hate the bear, I asked which man-eating tiger I should hate more. I did imply that I sympathized with the hiker and I do.

As for vampires, people are food for them.

I'm afraid I don't accept the Entity Relativism of that statement. We are the food. Vampires aren't bears or sharks. They are self-aware, thus the whole demons, damned, etc. They know they are performing evil acts and they revel in it. The humahhns are on my side, I am on theirs. The vampires are by definition the bad guys and they like it. This makes them not okay.

I've maintained for ages that there is no way he should have made it through season 5 undusted.

He doesn't make it to Season 5 if I get to script the Scoobies. :)

his character, up until he got a soul, was a very interesting exercise in evil and good and all the steps in between

I didn't go along on the voyage of the Shades of Grey Treader, but now we get into the old old chip is not a soul territory and that is soo Season Six, doh I said Season Six, ack! I said it again! Must scrub brain twice now!

Went to see Mystic River last night. Meh. *shrug*

Maybe I would have liked it more if I hadn't read the book 4 months ago and knew the entire plot, though Brent figured it out about 30 minutes in and sighed throughout the entire film. Tim Robbins was much better acting-wise than Sean Penn. In a nutshell, I'm not sure what all the hype is about.

To get on topic for a second, I'm not a fan of peanut butter cookies. Actively dislike them. I like peanut butter, I just don't think it is dessert.

I was saying something simialr to this to megan yesterday.

I'd rather just eat peanuts, though I do like PB cookies. I don't think I've made them since I was a kid though.