"On November second 1983, don't get out of bed. No matter what you hear, or what you see. Promise me you won't get out of bed."

I count back six months from that. ::sniff::

I'm with Marcia and Anne on the severity and literality of the "beat-down" Dean took for Sam's running off (and just how did he afford that rathole of an efficiency? Or book into a motel without a car?). I don't think John ever physically abused either boy. Their love for him and fear of his disapproval were strong enough (Something Wicked) to qualify as a beat-down. Also, while I'm sure John did drink occasionally, a lot of people bought into the notion that he was a drunk, off Sam's complaints in S1. To the point that on rewatch of the season, they were surprised that not a single bottle or glass ever made an appearance in John's presence. The boys drank more than John was shown to. S1 Sam=unreliable narrator.

In fact, both brothers have been entirely subjective narrators the entire length of the show. Viewers and fans would do well to remember that fact when interpreting canon action we see unfold right before our eyes onscreen, in light of what we're told by canon characters.

I'm on the Marcia-and-Anne bench wrt John and Mary's relationship, and wee!Dean's infantile interpretation and recall of it. And I'll note my personal belief that Dean was actually three, not four-and-a-half, in his heaven-with-mom last night, because Sam wasn't even in either of their consciousnesses, and he would have been had he been there, even as an infant. Dean's Mom-related heaven was pre-Sammy, not Sam-excluded.

Or, on consideration, possibly What Plei Said re: infant Sammy. But only possibly.

TWOP: I get why people become polarized, I do. But that's not this show.

Also, for those who care, LA Con 2010 vids are up, thanks to some kind soul who was there. The JJ panel starts here.

And I'll note my personal belief that Dean was actually three, not four-and-a-half, in his heaven-with-mom last night, because Sam wasn't even in either of their consciousnesses, and he would have been had he been there, even as an infant. Dean's Mom-related heaven was pre-Sammy, not Sam-excluded

Mary mentioned two kids, not one, when talking to John.

Der. Which is why I considered What Plei Said. Thank you!

I don't see any reason to discount Sam or Dean's recounting of their father's use of hard liquor--certainly not because they (or at the very least Dean) drinks regularly and hard too (although by the empty distribution in the hotel room, they were definitely both partaking hard). I don't think that makes them unreliable--I don't see any reason I should ignore the idea that he drank while raising them.

I don't think it's at all surprising that he wasn't shown with alcohol in S1 either, not least of all because he was crazy mission man most of the time. I don't see how it erodes the point.

I also lend credence to the idea of Bobby drinking at least enough to get a rep as the town drunk. It's just going to be something I attach to hunters now. Drinking more than the mundanes. Drinking a lot more. And not just beer.

I know there are probably meta reasons for JDM not appearing in this episode, but I am willing to let it add to my perceived canon of John at least not as happy Dad. He is a lynchpin in Dean's life--even with any issues and realisations Dean may have made since John's death, I don't think he'll ever extricate him from that position, but if I'm going to lend weight to Dean not being in Sam's Heaven, I have to lend weight to John not being in either Heaven. He may have been what Dean's world revolved around, but the two mentions of him in-memory were notable for his absence.

(although by the empty distribution in the hotel room, they were definitely both partaking hard)

I thought the leftovers were from their killers.

I thought the leftovers were from their killers.

Why would the killers leave empties in Sam and Dean's hotel room?

I thought Sam and Dean were drinking to oblivion, hence the passed out in bed fully dressed.

Just a thought, but anyone else think heaven sucks? Alone with the echoes of your memory? Yuck. And both Ash and Pamela seemed Stepford happy.

Count me as someone who wishes Pamela didn't mack on Dean, it just felt superfluous and left me feeling vaguely uncomfortable. I love Pamela, but I'm not sure what she added to the story, unless it was the further easing in of the idea that Dean will say yes to Michael. His consent is feeling a lot less like 'yes' and a lot more like 'why not'.

I didn't see Ash as Stepford happy, at all.

Of course, I fricking love Ash's heaven.