I don't see any reason to discount Sam or Dean's recounting of their father's use of hard liquor--certainly not because they (or at the very least Dean) drinks regularly and hard too (although by the empty distribution in the hotel room, they were definitely both partaking hard). I don't think that makes them unreliable--I don't see any reason I should ignore the idea that he drank while raising them.

I don't think it's at all surprising that he wasn't shown with alcohol in S1 either, not least of all because he was crazy mission man most of the time. I don't see how it erodes the point.

I also lend credence to the idea of Bobby drinking at least enough to get a rep as the town drunk. It's just going to be something I attach to hunters now. Drinking more than the mundanes. Drinking a lot more. And not just beer.

I know there are probably meta reasons for JDM not appearing in this episode, but I am willing to let it add to my perceived canon of John at least not as happy Dad. He is a lynchpin in Dean's life--even with any issues and realisations Dean may have made since John's death, I don't think he'll ever extricate him from that position, but if I'm going to lend weight to Dean not being in Sam's Heaven, I have to lend weight to John not being in either Heaven. He may have been what Dean's world revolved around, but the two mentions of him in-memory were notable for his absence.

(although by the empty distribution in the hotel room, they were definitely both partaking hard)

I thought the leftovers were from their killers.

I thought the leftovers were from their killers.

Why would the killers leave empties in Sam and Dean's hotel room?

I thought Sam and Dean were drinking to oblivion, hence the passed out in bed fully dressed.

Just a thought, but anyone else think heaven sucks? Alone with the echoes of your memory? Yuck. And both Ash and Pamela seemed Stepford happy.

Count me as someone who wishes Pamela didn't mack on Dean, it just felt superfluous and left me feeling vaguely uncomfortable. I love Pamela, but I'm not sure what she added to the story, unless it was the further easing in of the idea that Dean will say yes to Michael. His consent is feeling a lot less like 'yes' and a lot more like 'why not'.

I didn't see Ash as Stepford happy, at all.

Of course, I fricking love Ash's heaven.

Of course, I fricking love Ash's heaven.

He was loads of fun, it's true. You're probably right about not being Stepford happy, but I would want his "spying on angels & wandering around screwing with heaven" version of heaven over "sitting in the roadhouse shotgunning beer" version.

Well, he was getting to hang with some pretty cool people while he did.

I wonder if he was really hanging with them, or hanging with their images. I guess really them, to drive home his mojo.

The JJ panel starts here.

Thank you for posting that Bev. Now I must smish them. Cutieheads.

I wonder if he was really hanging with them, or hanging with their images. I guess really them, to drive home his mojo.

I thought Ash had figured out how to go in and out of others' heavens and bring them into his. So everyone he was talking to was the real deal. That's why he was still looking for John and Mary rather than a memory of them.

Just a thought, but anyone else think heaven sucks?

Yes, big time. Life is as good as it gets. Heaven is a replay of your greatest hits (if you get bored can you kill yourself in Heaven?) and hell is full of torture. Damn depressing.

Just a thought, but anyone else think heaven sucks? Alone with the echoes of your memory? Yuck. And both Ash and Pamela seemed Stepford happy

If that's all it is, yeah. Ash and Pam's ability to cross from one personal Heaven to another makes me hope that eventually, once people get past the happy reminiscence/wish-fulfillment stage of it, they start meeting up, socializing, sharing enjoyable experiences with each other, etc. Sort of like in What Dreams May Come where Robin Williams initially wakes up in an idealized version of his own imaginary dream house and starts reuniting with loved ones once he's ready to.

No knock on Joshua (I think he was both excellently written and acted, and Yay Show for finally featuring a benevolent authority figure of color), but I really wish the confrontation with Zachariah could have been ended by Real!Mary kicking a door in and going all Ellen Ripley on his ass. (Maybe with Joshua showing up to remark that people are most like God when filled with selfless, protective love for their children, a connection that ought not be disregarded in Heaven.)