I'm only talking about how I'd choose in that situation.

That's what makes a horse race.

Somehow it seems that being able to rise to the occasion of parenting is part of the definition of decency. I mean, how else could you contend that decent people would rise to the occasion? What subtlety am I missing here?

I know people who are beyond decent, who are flat out good, but I think would be sub-par parents. I don't judge them for that, I don't think that it makes them less good.

It's just a role for which they would be ill-suited, whether or not they took it on.

Being a good person doesn't ensure being a good parent, and being a Bitch doesn't either.

Strictly speaking ita, you're right. I can't know who here is a decent person. I assumed decency among the people participating in the converation, based on internet conversations and a few brief meetings with some.

If I got pregnant and decided to parent a child and did it badly, would I have to turn in my "decent" card? I mean, assuming I have one.

I have some discomfort with calling childlessness "a life of one's own." Everyone has a life of one's own. Parents have a life of their own--it is more proscribed and has more demands, but it IS their own life. People who choose to live with someone as a romantic partner, or single people who live with elderly parents or, hell, even folks with roommates they are close to all have their own lives. I know exactly what Teppy meant, and as a person with no children, I have had judgmental comments directed my way. This is entirely a picky semantic concern on my part.

t hearts Robin

This is a difficult topic for me, but it is also one I feel very strongly about. I get very frustrated with both the idealization of parenthood and the idealization of non-parenthood. Both life situations have their pros and cons. Being a parent is really hard. Being a non-parent can also be really hard. You can have a "life" either way, though I'm not contesting that having a child greatly shapes that life.

Honestly, the thing that bothers me most about being childless now is not having my immediate family (who I define as ND and me) taken seriously. Strike One: not married. Strike Two: no kids. But even when I was married, I still fought against that bias. Being childless somehow meant that we weren't a "real" family--that we weren't "real" adults. Some people were (and are) downright patronizing about it.

Like I said, I actually would like a child. But if I never have one, that doesn't make me less of a grown up.

Oh, and side note: I loved being an only child, though I do find the lack of sibling support difficult when one of my divorced parents needs me. But watching ND deal with his sister and my DexH wrangle his brother reminds me that siblings sometimes add to the burden rather than lessen it.

of course, now when someone tells me that, i have the added bonus of guilting them with "no, i won't change my mind because i can't have kids. thankyouveddymuch!"

ETA: What tiggy said.

I know people who are beyond decent, who are flat out good, but I think would be sub-par parents. I don't judge them for that, I don't think that it makes them less good.

It's just a role for which they would be ill-suited, whether or not they took it on.

EETA: And what ita said to the nth degree.

In other words, what happens when a commitmentphobe meets a serial monogamist?

sounds like a line from Sex and the City, the one where Carrie is typing :)

I've known you for a while, and I don't think that you're commitment phobic. Don't forget that some of your relationships have ended not of your choosing, so you weren't the one avoiding commitment. I haven't seen you with anyone that you seemed to like enough to consider commitment in a while.

I would think that there's no need to put the brakes on right now, because you're still comfortable/having a good time, right? I would think that brakes only need to be applied if you aren't happy. There's no need to put on preemptory brakes. IMHO.

Now, consider that I haven't been in a serious relationship for 10 years, but I haven't really met anyone that I have wanted to be in a relationship with.

If I got pregnant and decided to parent a child and did it badly, would I have to turn in my "decent" card? I mean, assuming I have one.

I know people who are beyond decent, who are flat out good, but I think would be sub-par parents.

How are you defining badly? What makes a person a sub-par parent? My brother's a bad parent. He never (or rarely) sees his kid, and flakes on commitments beyond sending money to the account. He's not abusive, he's just not around.

Most people will, at the least, be okay parents. They'll raise reasonably productive members of society who'll go on to raise other reasonably productive members of society, and so on and so forth.

I'm twitchy about this, because I *know* I'm judged by SAHM friends for working and having my kid in daycare, for not totally subsuming myself under the needs of the child. I strive to be good enough as a parent, and to raise a kid who is as happy and well-adjusted as possible, but not by sacrificing myself on the alter of a mythical perfect childhood.

Skimmy skimmy at work skimmy.

Fascinating kids talk, and I'd like to chime in, but I only really have time to kick myself for not including sj in the list of Bitches I Have Not Met But Really Want to Because They Are Like Unto Blood Family to Me.

Also Cindy. Except that I have met victor, which I guess technically means I have met Cindy.

I hope I haven't excluded anybody else. I've met so many of you, and you all mean quite a great deal to me, I sometimes forget who I haven't met.

How are you defining badly? What makes a person a sub-par parent? My brother's a bad parent. He never (or rarely) sees his kid, and flakes on commitments beyond sending money to the account. He's not abusive, he's just not around.

I'd go with that as a bad parent--it's probably the easiest way to not be doing the job well.

We all come up with neuroses--we're human. But I've seen people where everything screams that they'd be happier childless, and do more good childless, but they're not and they have kids they don't know how to nurture, and at whom they throw money instead of affection, and try and avoid making parenting decisions as much as possible.

Now, I know parents who realise this in themselves and install a different nurturer in their children's lives. That's recognising and addressing a shortcoming, and in the end, the kids'll probably be okay for it. Different maybe, but okay.

But not all of them do that.

And clips...check it out, I have a clip file...

erika, that's awesome. And the thing about them being lucky to have you? Totally true.

Hrm. Perhaps brakes are not needed for meara, but a line in the sand that can be re-assessed in a few months?

SO TIRED. Please to let me go home now.

I have some discomfort with calling childlessness "a life of one's own."

Well, as you noted, Robin, it's a semantic thing. I admit that I was using it as sloppy shorthand for "a life that is unencumbered by having, raising, and caring for one's own offspring." That's all I meant.

I didn't mean that parents don't have their own lives; and I don't mean that non-parents have lives that are totally unencumbered by any external demand.

I apologize for my sloppy shorthand semantics. I didn't mean to offend parents or non-parents; all of your lives are your own and equally valid.

Steph, I, for one, was not offended in the least. If it matters, what with me being a breeder and all.

t winks

I love being a mom. I would hope that noone thought less of me for loving being a mom. I would never think less of anyone for not wanting to be a parent. It just means that you are the person I come to when I have no money.

Heh. I think I'm just worried about getting my heart broken. Which of course, is impossible to predict/prevent(in a sane way)/etc.

Stupid realtionship crap.