Pete is the only thing standing between me and crazy cat lady-dom

Ozzie's that thing for me.

Oy vey. Um, they take it verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly?

Um. So I guess spending almost every night together doesn't count, eh?

checks to make sure she's not meara, becomes very disappointed that she is not that foamy

No, not really, sweetheart.

I'm not so much a commitmentphobe, but yeah. If you want this to last, I think you might need to put the brakes on a bit.

Then again, you may want to consider the source.

I call bullshit. There are too many bad parents out there to safely make that assumption. And a "Well, Bitches would rise to the occasion" rejoinder gets a "Bullshit" reply from me too. You just don't know. Being a good person doesn't ensure being a good parent, and being a Bitch doesn't either.

Strictly speaking ita, you're right. I can't know who here is a decent person. I assumed decency among the people participating in the converation, based on internet conversations and a few brief meetings with some. Before I continue, I want to note I wasn't trying to argue anyone into having a baby. I think it's great that so many people are so self aware, and not diving blind and headlong into a lifelong role.

I don't think anyone should have children, unless he or she is really sure and really wants to. It's not the life for everyone. That said, the specific thought I'd been trying to express is when Hec said:

I'm making a distinction here between folks saying they selfishly want to have their own free time so choose not to have kids vs. people who think they would be bad parents because of said selfishness. If you actually had the kid, the selfishness is moot.

I think selfishness* (or important goals, pursuits, and interests that would be hindered by having a child) is a great reason not to have a child, but not because that sort of "selfishness" will make you a bad parent. I think that, because it can make you an unhappy parent. Mooted selfishness won't make you a good parent, by the way. It's just part of what happens to decent people, when they're left totally responsible for something vulnerable and helpless.

If you're speaking of Buffistas, then I'll grant you that. I assume you aren't speaking of humans in general.

I wasn't even speaking of Buffistas in general, or Bitches in general, just the people who chimed in. But still, ita's right, I can't know. For all I know, you'd abandon your baby to the Lutherans, and never look back.

I think that *any* reason that anyone chooses not to have kids -- including because they want their own life, unencumbered by kids -- is absolutely valid and not selfish.

Exactly. I think the only reason the word is in this conversation, is because ita used it to describe herself. I can't remember if anyone else did. I avoid it, because I think the word has been wielded as a weapon (in the culture, not here) against people self-aware enough to choose not to have kids, when they know it doesn't match their interests and abilities.

This is quite a conversation to drop into just as the communists are leaving town.

People say adoption is horrible? WTF?

Got no advice for meara, but yay for having a fun reason taking up your time!

Parenting does *not* force all parents to grow.

agreed. I have a lot to say , but they are DH's parents. But I will say that 90% of what is good, wonderful and kind is due to his own efforts to become an adult and not get stuck in his parent's world. I give his parents credit for showing him what not to be. They are not evil, in fact I enjoy talking with them there are things I really ike about them. His mom, for example, would never turn a hungry person away. She might lecture them, but she would feed them well. And his dad has never lost his intellectual curiosity. and they gave the world Matt, so I can forgive them for a lot.

Yay meara!

People with kids DO have lives of their own.

Some of my friends in PA, all stay-at-home moms, used to say to me all the time, with regard to my writing and freelance income and occasional trips into NYC to deal with same, "You're so lucky you get to have a real life!" And that just astounded me -- being a mom to my kids is very much part of my *real* life. I felt like telling them that if they were still waiting to have a *real* life (at some unspecified point, maybe when the kids were allschool-age), they were missing something.

Life is what you make it. I'm self-aware enough to know that, although I certainly would have fed and diapered and loved twins, *having* twins, or babies within a year or two of each other would have made me really unhappy. I'm self-aware enough to know that I like having outside work and interests, and I'm fortunate that I have a husband who understands and supports that. (And I knew a lot of women whose husbands don't.)

I think selfishness gets conflated with self-awareness much of the time.

I'm not so much a commitmentphobe, but yeah. If you want this to last, I think you might need to put the brakes on a bit.

Erm. Never having had to do that before, and keeping in mind that I am basically ENJOYING all the time spent together, just...a little freaked out by it, and by the concept of all of it....how does one DO that, put the brakes on??

I think selfishness gets conflated with self-awareness much of the time.

Exactly.

but not because that sort of "selfishness" will make you a bad parent. I think that, because it can make you an unhappy parent.

and I think that is where I would have been. Now if Matt had been home more - less travel or crazy hours , I might not have been unhappy. At one point, when Matt was working for a VC - some of the partners were too curious about when wew were going to have children. Matt was comming home between 10 and 12 4 out of 5 nights. My answers - which was said in a lighthearted way (but I was very serious) was, 'when Matt is home more '. I know me- I am happy all alone and really need alone time. I think I would have survived the infant stage , but the clingly toddler stage might have driven me insane.

Homely Dateless Bitch

Save room on that bench for me, erika.

I don't even know that I'm ready for a pet yet. I'm not past the "not killing your houseplants" stage.