I guess Beckham shouldn't have grown out his World Cup hair.
No power in the 'verse can stop me.
River ,'War Stories'
All Ogle, No Cash -- It's Not Just Annoying, It's Un-American
Discussion of episodes currently airing in Un-American locations (anything that's aired in Australia is fair game), as well as anything else the Un-Americans feel like talking about or we feel like asking them. Please use the show discussion threads for any current-season discussion.
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Megan E. - Sep 18, 2002 5:24:15 am PDT #41 of 9843
Angus G - Sep 18, 2002 7:02:31 am PDT #42 of 9843
Roguish Laird
Perfect tagline, Angus, even if the end of the Last Battle is a disturbing eschatological copout.
I know, Jim! All that Platonic crap, I normally hate it, but somehow here it seems appropriate.
(I always wanted to ask C.S. Lewis, though, if the adventures in the "old" Narnia were but a pale shadow of the world to come, does that also apply to Aslan's death and resurrection? How can a world without pain and death be more real than this one? I seem to remember that striking me as a theological problem even when I was eight-ish.)
billytea - Sep 18, 2002 8:01:38 am PDT #43 of 9843
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.
(I always wanted to ask C.S. Lewis, though, if the adventures in the "old" Narnia were but a pale shadow of the world to come, does that also apply to Aslan's death and resurrection? How can a world without pain and death be more real than this one? I seem to remember that striking me as a theological problem even when I was eight-ish.)
I think Anselm's the best bet for that one (the Ontological argument, of course, is very Platonic in nature). I'm thinking particularly of his reply to Gaunilo, who claimed that if his argument established the existence of God, then it would also do the same for perfect islands and such like. Anselm's answer was more or less that any other such perfection was contingent - perfect for what? In which case, that which is most real is that which is most perfect simply by virtue of itself, this then being moral perfection (it being the only form of perfection that does not require explication in other terms).
In which case, if you're starting from this viewpoint that Platonic reality is tied to moral perfection (and I think Lewis was, Anselm being in the Christian tradition after all), then you get to the interestingly Eastern position that pain and suffering is an illusion, to some degree or another.
Sue - Sep 18, 2002 8:06:03 am PDT #44 of 9843
hip deep in pie
(Fleeing from the Anselm discussion....)
Angus G - Sep 18, 2002 8:11:09 am PDT #45 of 9843
Roguish Laird
That's all very well, billytea, but...
Nothing, really. I've just always wanted to start a post with "That's all very well." Although I would just say that the entire emotional drift of the Narnia series, up to but not including The Magician's Nephew and The Last Battle (the final two books Lewis wrote, IIRC), is basically pagan despite the allegedly "Christian" allegorical bits, and to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.
billytea - Sep 18, 2002 8:37:33 am PDT #46 of 9843
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.
Nothing, really. I've just always wanted to start a post with "That's all very well." Although I would just say that the entire emotional drift of the Narnia series, up to but not including The Magician's Nephew and The Last Battle (the final two books Lewis wrote, IIRC), is basically pagan despite the allegedly "Christian" allegorical bits, and to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.
Yeah, I prefer pagan Platonism myself.
And you're right, the last book did rather change the flow of the series. Not in a good way. I was particularly irritated by the treatment of Susan, was it? Rather condescending.
brenda m - Sep 18, 2002 8:38:04 am PDT #47 of 9843
If you're going through hell/keep on going/don't slow down/keep your fear from showing/you might be gone/'fore the devil even knows you're there
to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.
Angus speaks for me. Honestly, not to make too much of it, I'd say that between the conclusion to the Narnia series and some of his other books ( Mere Christianity , for one) Lewis was instrumental in my gradual detatchment from Christianity.
[So there, C.S. Heh.]
Angus G - Sep 18, 2002 8:41:07 am PDT #48 of 9843
Roguish Laird
I was particularly irritated by the treatment of Susan, was it? Rather condescending.
Oh, rather! (As Peter might say.) "She's interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipstick and invitations." That's the exact quote--I still have the book here from doing my tagline!
billytea - Sep 18, 2002 8:46:22 am PDT #49 of 9843
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.
OTOH, I loved Shadowlands. Though Anthony Hopkins has a lot to do with that.
DavidS - Sep 18, 2002 9:11:33 am PDT #50 of 9843
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."
You better be careful. If JZ catches you ragging on C.S. Lewis she'll be in here toot sweet explaining how his philosophy changed over time becoming more open and inclusive. She's read every damn thing he ever wrote.
And you're right, the last book did rather change the flow of the series. Not in a good way. I was particularly irritated by the treatment of Susan, was it? Rather condescending.
Still, I had the same issues with the end of the Narnia series.