(I always wanted to ask C.S. Lewis, though, if the adventures in the "old" Narnia were but a pale shadow of the world to come, does that also apply to Aslan's death and resurrection? How can a world without pain and death be more real than this one? I seem to remember that striking me as a theological problem even when I was eight-ish.)

I think Anselm's the best bet for that one (the Ontological argument, of course, is very Platonic in nature). I'm thinking particularly of his reply to Gaunilo, who claimed that if his argument established the existence of God, then it would also do the same for perfect islands and such like. Anselm's answer was more or less that any other such perfection was contingent - perfect for what? In which case, that which is most real is that which is most perfect simply by virtue of itself, this then being moral perfection (it being the only form of perfection that does not require explication in other terms).

In which case, if you're starting from this viewpoint that Platonic reality is tied to moral perfection (and I think Lewis was, Anselm being in the Christian tradition after all), then you get to the interestingly Eastern position that pain and suffering is an illusion, to some degree or another.

(Fleeing from the Anselm discussion....)

That's all very well, billytea, but...

Nothing, really. I've just always wanted to start a post with "That's all very well." Although I would just say that the entire emotional drift of the Narnia series, up to but not including The Magician's Nephew and The Last Battle (the final two books Lewis wrote, IIRC), is basically pagan despite the allegedly "Christian" allegorical bits, and to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.

Nothing, really. I've just always wanted to start a post with "That's all very well." Although I would just say that the entire emotional drift of the Narnia series, up to but not including The Magician's Nephew and The Last Battle (the final two books Lewis wrote, IIRC), is basically pagan despite the allegedly "Christian" allegorical bits, and to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.

Yeah, I prefer pagan Platonism myself.

And you're right, the last book did rather change the flow of the series. Not in a good way. I was particularly irritated by the treatment of Susan, was it? Rather condescending.

to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.

Angus speaks for me. Honestly, not to make too much of it, I'd say that between the conclusion to the Narnia series and some of his other books ( Mere Christianity , for one) Lewis was instrumental in my gradual detatchment from Christianity.

[So there, C.S. Heh.]

I was particularly irritated by the treatment of Susan, was it? Rather condescending.

Oh, rather! (As Peter might say.) "She's interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipstick and invitations." That's the exact quote--I still have the book here from doing my tagline!

OTOH, I loved Shadowlands. Though Anthony Hopkins has a lot to do with that.

You better be careful. If JZ catches you ragging on C.S. Lewis she'll be in here toot sweet explaining how his philosophy changed over time becoming more open and inclusive. She's read every damn thing he ever wrote.

And you're right, the last book did rather change the flow of the series. Not in a good way. I was particularly irritated by the treatment of Susan, was it? Rather condescending.

Still, I had the same issues with the end of the Narnia series.

The hell of it, for me, reading The Last Battle, was that the whoel rapture/end times thing didn't work as a plot element.

I was coming to the end -- I think I read it when I was 9 -- and then it was getting worse and worse for Our Heroes, and then suddenly it all turned into a Greatest Hits of Narnia album, with a psychedelic ending.

And I was like, This is how you get yourself out of a bad situation? Hope Aslan shows up and then have some strange hallucinations involving a door?

I also wasn't entirely clear that Peter and Lucy and Edmund ended up in Narnia at the end because they had died in our world. I realized that on re-read when I was 12 or so and felt even more cheated.

Yes, well, women with sexuality are eeeeevil. Only little girls and mothers are OK.

What? Me? CS Lewis issues? Just because I've read Mere Christianity and That Hideous Strength? In the latter of which it is revealed that birth control is a direct tool of Satan?