For that matter, go any team that plays Man Utd, ever.

aren't they on a bit of a losing streak?

aren't they on a bit of a losing streak?

Karmicly (sic?) they most certainly are.

I guess Beckham shouldn't have grown out his World Cup hair.

Perfect tagline, Angus, even if the end of the Last Battle is a disturbing eschatological copout.

I know, Jim! All that Platonic crap, I normally hate it, but somehow here it seems appropriate.

(I always wanted to ask C.S. Lewis, though, if the adventures in the "old" Narnia were but a pale shadow of the world to come, does that also apply to Aslan's death and resurrection? How can a world without pain and death be more real than this one? I seem to remember that striking me as a theological problem even when I was eight-ish.)

(I always wanted to ask C.S. Lewis, though, if the adventures in the "old" Narnia were but a pale shadow of the world to come, does that also apply to Aslan's death and resurrection? How can a world without pain and death be more real than this one? I seem to remember that striking me as a theological problem even when I was eight-ish.)

I think Anselm's the best bet for that one (the Ontological argument, of course, is very Platonic in nature). I'm thinking particularly of his reply to Gaunilo, who claimed that if his argument established the existence of God, then it would also do the same for perfect islands and such like. Anselm's answer was more or less that any other such perfection was contingent - perfect for what? In which case, that which is most real is that which is most perfect simply by virtue of itself, this then being moral perfection (it being the only form of perfection that does not require explication in other terms).

In which case, if you're starting from this viewpoint that Platonic reality is tied to moral perfection (and I think Lewis was, Anselm being in the Christian tradition after all), then you get to the interestingly Eastern position that pain and suffering is an illusion, to some degree or another.

(Fleeing from the Anselm discussion....)

That's all very well, billytea, but...

Nothing, really. I've just always wanted to start a post with "That's all very well." Although I would just say that the entire emotional drift of the Narnia series, up to but not including The Magician's Nephew and The Last Battle (the final two books Lewis wrote, IIRC), is basically pagan despite the allegedly "Christian" allegorical bits, and to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.

Nothing, really. I've just always wanted to start a post with "That's all very well." Although I would just say that the entire emotional drift of the Narnia series, up to but not including The Magician's Nephew and The Last Battle (the final two books Lewis wrote, IIRC), is basically pagan despite the allegedly "Christian" allegorical bits, and to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.

Yeah, I prefer pagan Platonism myself.

And you're right, the last book did rather change the flow of the series. Not in a good way. I was particularly irritated by the treatment of Susan, was it? Rather condescending.

to have that horrid Christian Platonism tacked on at the end just feels like a betrayal to me.

Angus speaks for me. Honestly, not to make too much of it, I'd say that between the conclusion to the Narnia series and some of his other books ( Mere Christianity , for one) Lewis was instrumental in my gradual detatchment from Christianity.

[So there, C.S. Heh.]

I was particularly irritated by the treatment of Susan, was it? Rather condescending.

Oh, rather! (As Peter might say.) "She's interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipstick and invitations." That's the exact quote--I still have the book here from doing my tagline!