I don't think Arwen in the books is a slam on women, since she does have a story, and Tolkien didn't put it right in the story.

But I don't think Arwen in the movies is a slam either -- I think she's PJ's attempt to make the best of a mostly absent deal, and an ineffective attempt at that. But I blame casting (and that odd my mortality is tied to the ring (does it have to do with giving Frodo her grace? What *is* that?) thing) for a lot of it. If not for the fact that he has to choose her over Eowyn, simple casting could be enough for us to look at her and think "I get that. I see why he's loved her for decades". Liv Tyler? Not a freaking chance. Given that PJ had cast a creampuff, the writing needed to pick up the slack.

I don't know. If Arwen had been played by the Platonic Ideal of a perfect woman, the writing would still have stranded her in WTF-land. I think, once you re-orient her as an active character with a subjectivity, you're sort of obligated to play that out all the way through. Not turn her into a helpless twit.

Alternately, you could write her from the start as regarding the whole thing as a test -- not just Elrond seeing it that way, but her too. Not "I know you need to go do remarkable things; I'll wait here for you", but "Go do remarkable things, and don't come back to me till you've done them." It sort of flies in the face of classic romance, but I like the idea of her deciding, not before the movie starts, but right there in the middle of it, whether she'll cleave to him (and from the elves) or not.

[edited because WFT is not the same as WTF.]

But then his reasons for doing the remarkable things become entirely selfish, and defeat the main purpose of his arc.

I want Aragorn wrestling alone with his destiny and what that means in the larger scheme of men and history, not fighting so he can nail some chick, elven or not.

Well, no, it might take some delicacy in couching the terms, but Strider's whole motivation needn't come from trying to win her approval. After all, in the books, she clearly loves him, and clearly will not marry him if everything goes wrong -- she'll head out to the Havens just like her dad and brothers. What she'll not do is hang around in Middle-earth unless Strider gives her a good enough reason. (She doesn't phrase it that way; really, it comes across as her obeying Elrond's orders, but it's absolutely set up as an either/or proposition: become King and win all, or get squashed like a bug and lose all. There was no scenario in which Middle-earth survived but Strider stayed just a regular humdrum guy.)

It's sort of a selfish stance to give to a romantic heroine, deciding about a lover based on logic and circumstance, rather than pure emotion, but she's giving up an awful lot to stay in Middle-earth, if she does. She should do other than ping-pong between father and boyfriend and sit around crying helplessly.

What Nutty said WRT Arwen. And also that as written in the both the movies and books, there was really no way I was going to walk out with any other reaction than, "Dammit, he should've married Eowyn." But the casting of both women only intensified that.

(Also, I hope I've managed to dig my foot out of my mouth from my earlier overgeneralization/poorly worded statement, because I'm about to go offline for several hours, and I really do hate it when I say stupid things, especially when they're a result of sloppy word choice, because, dammit, supposed to be a writer here and all that.)

I think I'd dislike that Arwen more than one that behaves as scripted, but projected a sense of worth. It's too close to an ultimatum (and seems more like bad romance than not). Especially being played by Liv.

Spoilers for the EE. If this is all true, even more people noting omissions here are going to be pleased.

Susan, speaking for me, I think you clarified what you meant very elegantly. And I wouldn't worry about not being perfectly apt on the first go-round--after all, 75% of writing os RE-writing, and we don't really have this luxury here. We all kind of hone and clarify on the fly, due to the nature on online posting.

Well, yes, there's the played by Liv Tyler part of the equation.

In the book, it is an ultimatum, although I don't think it's ever phrased in the negative so much as "If this and this occur, then that", with the if-not parts being partially unspoken. In trying to come up with a way for Arwen to be actively involved in her own fate, without becoming (a) Lani Jackson or (b) a wet kleenex, I think making her the one who says, "No, I won't marry you if Middle-earth is a hopeless cause" is the closest to a middle road one can hew.

I guess, I didn't mean it to come across as the bad romance novel kind of ultimatum, "I don't marry men who aren't zillionaires", but rather as the kind of ultimatum that says, "I won't marry you only to be raped and murdered by orcs shortly thereafter." Basically, push her "I choose a mortal life" decision back to the middle/end of the movie(s), rather than leaving it at the beginning.

Is it stated to him, or understood?