all she did was ride in circles and cry.

Don't forget having a vision of her perfect fulfillment through mommyhood . Gak. I want an Eowyn of my very own.

The more I think about it, the more I agree with Nutty re: Arwen. I liked her quite a bit in FOTR and wholeheartedly defended PJ's decision to give her Glorfindel's role. But she was so dull and soppy in TTT and ROTK that I couldn't root for her like I wanted to. Remember those rumors about Arwen showing up and fighting at Helm's Deep, that we all mocked so roundly? Maybe that would have worked better after all! Although probably not with Liv Tyler in the role. But she definitely needed to be, as someone said upthread, more subject than object. It ties in, too, with what I said a ways back about when she shows up at Aragorn's coronation. She looks so young! It should be clearer that she is in fact much older than Aragorn. I wish she had been more assertive and less in-sudden-inexplicable-mortal-peril.

But re: making Arwen more of a do-er. (Is the whitefont really necessary here I am asking myself...dunno.)

I agree completely but at the same time am glad they DID NOT put her at Helm's Deep as they originally planned because that would have been wrong in soo many ways.

eta: Arwen at Helm's Deep x-post! (Is it an X post if we are making opposite points though? Prob. not.)

Heh, tina. I don't know, I'm conflicted. I just want Arwen to be more interesting, less irritating. Less tearstained, more bloodstained.

just want Arwen to be more interesting, less irritating. Less tearstained, more bloodstained.

Totally. The only reason I am so anti-Arwen at Helm's Deep is because I balk at the idea of an Arwen and Eowyn jealousy stare-down and want nothing to distract from Eowyn getting to know/falling for Aragorn.

But see, here's where I am a book purist, because I want it to feel right that Aragorn should be wholly in love with Arwen. I don't want to be watching them and thinking "he should totally have gone for Eowyn instead!"

I liked that Arwen was more of a doer in FotR, even at the cost of Glorfindel and I'm a purist meanie. I regret that they chose to schmoopify her over the last two movies, but she doesn't bug me that much. I'm not in the LivMustDie!1! camp, because I thought she did fine with what she was given. Even Cate Blanchett couldn't really give me Galadriel although she did an excellent job, and she's one of the best actors of her generation. I think Arwen, treated as she deserves, was beyond the reach of our moviemakers.

I had this whitefonted, then I realized, uh, there's nothing spoily in here.

See, when I saw the kid, I thought they were about to transition into Ghan Buri Ghan. What actually happened, therefore, was a bit of a dissapointment. I also realized that they weren't going to give Frodo the Evenstar, even though that's where the idea for it came from in the first place t /grump

I spent the drive into work thinking about my main problem with Arwen, which was casting. It's the only casting decision I think was wrong, although many people say they can't get past Agent Elrond.

She was just nothing -- soft sighs and youthful but uncompelling pretty. I dunno -- give me Claudia Black, or something. Then I'm good.

And on top of the fact that Liv looks 16 in normal light, she has Cybil Shepherd lighting for every single shot, so she comes over younger. Not eternal, younger.

And as for RotK -- an absolute yes that tying her to the ring made little sense. I see what PJ was going for by making her Glorfindel, but not by this. To make us care more? Ratchet up the stakes? The world's about to end. She was gonna die anyway.

I think Arwen, treated as she deserves, was beyond the reach of our moviemakers.

I disagree, if only because they got so much else so right, and I don't think it could have been so much harder to get Arwen right, too.