Does Spike's immolation count as dying?

Good question, P-C. I would guess yes, under the theory that he, like Darla, got dusted, and the fact that he came back as a ghost.

The part where she was fleeing gives it a different vibe for me, though.

Yes, and that's why I think her heroism at the end can be debated.

It seems like most witches who aren't Willow, and possibly Tara or Amy, don't really have enough fire power to do anything *but* run when faced with a vamp. Given that, you're right she should have just. gone. home.

So ita, in your view, Angel can't count as having died, because he was dead to begin with, even though he went through something that would have been dying to anyone who was still alive, and capabable of dying?

And along with that, when she told Giles, Buffy said that she'd killed him. In her mind, she had. Even knowing he'd been in (small h) hell, I'm not sure she ever revised that opinion.

Actually, I think I see ita's point, and somewhat agree with it. Angel is a vamp. Vamps don't die unless they are dusted. Angel wasn't dusted, therefore he didn't die.

Everyone thought he died, and reacted as if he died, but they were acting on a faulty premise.

To go back to my original point - when I said women were the protagonists I was kind of using shorthand - the majority of characters you care about, and thus who are worth killing, in Buffy are women. You kill Hank - who fucking cares? With the exception of Xander and (after S3) Giles, all the characters you identified with were always women (OK, it's possible you were meant to relate to Spike in CWDP, but I choose to erase the memory of that farrago). The guys were totty of one kind or another, and thus less emotionally gripping. The show's about girls, and about girls becoming women. No matter how much Marti drifted from that mission statement, that's how Buffy started, that's how it ended. Everything big that happened in Buffy happened to girls.

Buffy did a big terrible awful thing (well, excepting the part where she saved the world). She stabbed her ex through the gut and sent him to hell. For most people, that would be deathly. But if a normally mortal injury doesn't kill you, you aren't dead. And that injury doesn't even count as normally mortal for him.

I'm pretty sure I'm talking around Joss et al being sloppy here, but ... too late. They already were.

Has it been mentioned onscreen, ever, that he wasn't dead? I mean, in rebuttal to the claim he was?

With the exception of Xander and (after S3) Giles, all the characters you identified with were always women

You really don't think Angel counted?

You really don't think Angel counted?

In hindsight, Angel seems slightly idealized or even removed from the mainstream. He evolved from a Mysterious Presence to Buffy's Older Boyfriend. (I'm separating Angel from Angelus for this purpose.)

Even after he returned in S3, he's metaphorically the boyfriend who's gone off to college. They may have a relationship, but there's a barrier between them. Instead of distance, there's the gypsy curse.

It's possible to identify with him then, but not easy.

It's possible to identify with him then, but not easy.

I never identified with any of them, so I have a perspective gap. I mean, if push came to shove, there's some weird Spikification going on there, but that's because he's wearing my clothes, most likely.

I liked them all, varying amounts, and intellectually understood where you might plug into Buffy or Xander, but that was about it.