Actually, I think I see ita's point, and somewhat agree with it. Angel is a vamp. Vamps don't die unless they are dusted. Angel wasn't dusted, therefore he didn't die.

Everyone thought he died, and reacted as if he died, but they were acting on a faulty premise.

To go back to my original point - when I said women were the protagonists I was kind of using shorthand - the majority of characters you care about, and thus who are worth killing, in Buffy are women. You kill Hank - who fucking cares? With the exception of Xander and (after S3) Giles, all the characters you identified with were always women (OK, it's possible you were meant to relate to Spike in CWDP, but I choose to erase the memory of that farrago). The guys were totty of one kind or another, and thus less emotionally gripping. The show's about girls, and about girls becoming women. No matter how much Marti drifted from that mission statement, that's how Buffy started, that's how it ended. Everything big that happened in Buffy happened to girls.

Buffy did a big terrible awful thing (well, excepting the part where she saved the world). She stabbed her ex through the gut and sent him to hell. For most people, that would be deathly. But if a normally mortal injury doesn't kill you, you aren't dead. And that injury doesn't even count as normally mortal for him.

I'm pretty sure I'm talking around Joss et al being sloppy here, but ... too late. They already were.

Has it been mentioned onscreen, ever, that he wasn't dead? I mean, in rebuttal to the claim he was?

With the exception of Xander and (after S3) Giles, all the characters you identified with were always women

You really don't think Angel counted?

You really don't think Angel counted?

In hindsight, Angel seems slightly idealized or even removed from the mainstream. He evolved from a Mysterious Presence to Buffy's Older Boyfriend. (I'm separating Angel from Angelus for this purpose.)

Even after he returned in S3, he's metaphorically the boyfriend who's gone off to college. They may have a relationship, but there's a barrier between them. Instead of distance, there's the gypsy curse.

It's possible to identify with him then, but not easy.

It's possible to identify with him then, but not easy.

I never identified with any of them, so I have a perspective gap. I mean, if push came to shove, there's some weird Spikification going on there, but that's because he's wearing my clothes, most likely.

I liked them all, varying amounts, and intellectually understood where you might plug into Buffy or Xander, but that was about it.

The part where she was fleeing gives it a different vibe for me, though.

On the bright side, at least Angelus didn't stick her in the fridge.

Has it been mentioned onscreen, ever, that he wasn't dead? I mean, in rebuttal to the claim he was?

Nope, I don't believe so. Unless you count Willow's "And that all worked out okay..." in Selfless.

I am very down with the idea that you can play a part in the big battle against evil without being able to do a single physical thing. Hence my irritation with the superification of Cordelia.

Sure, there are Justines and Gunns, but Wesleys and Freds need bigger weapons.

Jenny couldn't have done a damned thing to save her life, but she was fighting the good fight, in a very valuable way, and as such, she was a combatant in the larger sense, in the way I parse things.

Being physically vulnerable is not being powerless.

Gandalfe, I sent you the spreadsheet. There's also a zipped copy (it's an Excel file) on my site here if anyone cares. (It's just zipped out of habit; it's not like it's a big file.)

Their list of recurring characters seems goofier every time I look at it, so have many grains of salt handy, but Good/Bad/Other breakdown...

Buffy
22 villains: 6 women, 16 men. This doesn't include Allan Finch (RIP), Willy, or Parker, because I couldn't decide which side to put them on. 3 of the 6 women were killed. 14 of the 16 men were killed. (6 by Buffy.)

31 heroes: 15 women, 16 men. 7 of the 15 women were killed. 4 of the 16 men were killed.

Angel
17 villains: 6 women, 11 men. Left in the ambiguous category: Illyria, Justine, Holtz (RIP), and Merl (RIP). 3 of the 6 women were killed. 11 of the 11 men were killed. (But only 3 by Angel. Loser!)

15 heroes: 6 women, 9 men. 2 of the 6 women were killed. 2 of the 9 men were killed.

I wonder if I can add a column for # of episodes... hm.

So one thing is clear -- if you're a male, it's much healthier to be a hero.