I like season 5 of Buffy. Heck, I like Glory. I was actually really surprised to find how many people don't like it here. And I don't like season 6 at all. I guess my hardcore status is lacking, but ...

It's not the quality of season 6, magic!crack aside, it's the depression levels. I'm just not into that much badness happening to characters I like. It just gets gratuitous. Tara's death being a prime example.

Now season 7 dislike, that's about the quality.

Season 3 took my favorite fictional platonic relationship EVAH and turned it into an ill-conceived romantic one that had less convincing chemistry than the real life pairing of Kevin Spacey and Helen Hunt, in the process making me loathe one of my three favorite fictional characters and seriously diminishing the affection I felt for a second.

Word. I find some of their great moments together are now tainted on rewatch. Like the bit in Dead End where Angel buys Cordy all different kind of food because he can't remember what she likes. And the classic "Oh, I'll kill you dead."

I think Cordelia/Angel could have worked had Greenwalt been gone. I think there was a lot of shorthand and telling us there were feelings. I think they could have built a believable romance between them, but the show was sort of rudderless. I don't think it's a relationship I would have chosen, but that has more to do with Angel's stated reasons for leaving Buffy. I think they could have written those away and made it believable and workable.

I think Cordelia/Angel could have worked had Greenwalt been gone.

NO! Bfyy (sic) NAngle 4EVAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

I didn't see much that *needed* forgiving.

I think I agree with Matt - my problem with season 4 was the residual bitterness over what they did to Cordy. I LIKED her turning into the bad guy, and I thought ConCord was wonderfully wrong (and put a stake in A/C - Angel's mystical happy aside, which I also thought worked), but the early parts of the season were hard to take with Angel going on about his lost love.

I think trying to get Angel and Cordy together was a bigger error than the Magic=Crack of BtVS 6. And the fact that they had to basically de-snark Cordy in the process was salt in the wound.

I think they did explore it from "Shiny Happy People" through "Home".

Oh, I agree with you in general, but I meant Jasmine's motivation, specifically. Because up until then, we saw her as the villain because she was, she was eating people all the time. But in "Peace Out," it was so interesting to hear her defend herself, and I suddenly wasn't sure whether she had actually been evil to begin with.

but the early parts of the season were hard to take with Angel going on about his lost love.

I think trying to get Angel and Cordy together was a bigger error than the Magic=Crack of BtVS 6. And the fact that they had to basically de-snark Cordy in the process was salt in the wound.

I think it suffered far more because they cheated and took shortcuts, and told us too much, than because it was an impossible pairing. It could have been possible, but it was never given a believable foundation, and the execution was spotty and poor.

I'm having flashbacks to watching Cordy and Angel go at it in Waiting in the Wings.

Make it stop! Make it stop!

So, what's the consensus on last night's Angel? I'm dying to see it, and I keep looking longingly at the Angel thread. But I'll remain strong.

But quite aside from the Crapture, Season 3 took my favorite fictional platonic relationship EVAH and turned it into an ill-conceived romantic one that had less convincing chemistry than the real life pairing of Kevin Spacey and Helen Hunt

First: snerk.

Second: Oh yeah. That part. I can see, if one was seriously into Cordy, how that would be offpissing. I mean, S3 broke up the best couple since Dan and Casey (for which I may one day forgive it but THEIRLUVWUZSOPUR!). And there was a LOT of crap. Which I forgive it for what it set up. Also for the naked parts.

Rayne: it was loved.

I suddenly wasn't sure whether she had actually been evil to begin with.

That's such a hard question. She took away free will, but gave complete happiness. She ate people, but that's her food. Some of us eat cows and pigs (and they are yummy). I'm not sure that she fits the defintion of "evil"