Maybe I need to watch AtS season four again. Honestly, I didn't love it. Connor caused me physical pain at times with his badness, and Jasmine was not my favorite big bad at all. I liked the earlier guy better.

Badass Wesley was foamy, though.

Did like the Willow/Fred flirtation in that one episode an awful lot. They're clearly made for each other.

I loved the BonBon.

And I adored Jasmine.

And I need S4 on DVD, so I can wallow. Mmm.

And I need S4 on DVD, so I can wallow. Mmm.

Me too. Did you hear? SEVEN COMMENTARY TRACKS. My God.

And the S4 Overview? IS FORTY MINUTES LONG.

Come now, September. Come now, damn you!

S4 overview is that long? I can't wait!

Connor caused me physical pain at times with his badness, and Jasmine was not my favorite big bad at all. I liked the earlier guy better.

I could write a long, long post about why Jasmine was the best big bad either show ever had, but since I really, really needed to be in bed about three hours ago I'll just say that Jasmine rocked because she was the exact opposite of every other big bad they ever had on the show. She was truly ambiguous - something that no other ME big bad ever was. You could make a case that Angel and the MoG were the big bads by the end of S4. You can't do that with any other season of Buffy or Angel.

Also, S4 should be hallowed just for the Connor/Angel rendition of "Mandy" alone. Best. Moment. Ever.

She was truly ambiguous - something that no other ME big bad ever was.

Yes, Maysa, I totally agree. I wished they could have explored this more in "Peace Out," but then Connor put a hole in her.

Though I don't know...maybe the First Evil was actually working for good!

Yes, Maysa, I totally agree. I wished they could have explored this more in "Peace Out," but then Connor put a hole in her.

Ack, I should be in bed, but I'm still too giddy from tonight's episode.

I apologize for this next paragraph in advance; I'm pretty tired and it's kind of disjointed.

I think they did explore it from "Shiny Happy People" through "Home". What I'm trying to say, but I can't really articulate it very well, is that they really explored a whole new set of ideas in the last ten episodes or so of S4. That season had such a slew of themes: free-will, good/evil, ends justifying the means, cause and effect, sacrifice (what you would give up for others, and what you would give up for yourself just to be happy), individual vs. group, moral relativity, suffering, and even the entire human condition. Not to mention a bunch of others. I think they attempted to say more (by showing rather than telling) in that season than in any other, and they more or less succeeded.

Cause Craputre or no, there were NO FUCKING HORSIES KEEPING UP WITH A FUCKING MOTOR HOME.

I can overlook a plot point in one given episode, no matter how stupid (and boy, was that one stupid). But quite aside from the Crapture, Season 3 took my favorite fictional platonic relationship EVAH and turned it into an ill-conceived romantic one that had less convincing chemistry than the real life pairing of Kevin Spacey and Helen Hunt, in the process making me loathe one of my three favorite fictional characters and seriously diminishing the affection I felt for a second. I loved the first four episodes, the fifth up until Fred decided to return, and the Couplet-to-Forgiving stretch, but the middle and the last three eps felt like Joss, Greenwalt, and Tim were driving cross country to ring my doorbell and spit in my face.

Started watching at S1. (Sort of).

Buffy, 3,6,5,2,4,1,7. Two and four are interchangeable depending on which way the wind's blowing.

Angel, 2,4,3,1. I'll reserve judgement till five is over. Three ranks above one simply because there were a couple of awful, just awful episodes there.

Ah, it's the breakdown of the bicameral mind, as this is the point we finally differ at Cindy.

I think if I had started watching in season 1, there's a chance my order would be more like yours Matt, or at least, the people I know who watched from the beginning, but respond the same way I do, to the same things in both shows, have lists that look more like yours.

Not only am I incapable of making a list that combines and ranks BtVS and Angel, I get dizzy reading the lists of those who did combine them. Of course, in my head, season 4 of BtVS is Season 1 of Angel. In other words, when I try, I end up thinking in terms of a 'verse list, in which there have only been a total of eight seasons. Must try that later in the day.

If Angel S2 had stopped one episode before Pylea, I'd call it my favourite season of TV ever.

Oh yeah.

S7 BtVS (So much potential... sigh.)

Every single ad ever aired during BtVS and AtS, including the ones for feminine products.

S5 BtVS.

COMM! (even though we disagree, that was hysterical)

Even though S7 makes me more angry.

That's the thing that makes me cut 5 more slack. Season 7 makes me angry because of where it could have gone, and because it followed 6, and should have given us back our Buffy, but in so many ways, it didn't. I do think 5 and 7 had the exact same kinds of problems in terms of wasted potential, but because 5 didn't have the SiTs, I deal better.

Once there's nothing on TV but The Swan and whatever it spawns, the Buffistas should have a group project, and rewrite 5 through 7. I would want some rules: same outcomes, same major developments (deaths, couplings, uncouplings, and big bads), but tell the story in a better way, one that supports both the premises introduced at the beginnings of the season.

eta...

The Angel NAFDA thread has finally surpassed the Buffy thread in posts. I've been watching for the day. Sometimes BtVS was a whole thread (maybe even 2) ahead of A:ts. It took A:ts 18 episodes to surpass BtVS.

Right now Angel 4 has 7829 posts, and BtVS 4 has 7692. It looks like Angel 4 caught up—the two threads first were tied at 7667 posts with this A:ts post (warning, Angel is NAFDA) at tommyrot "Angel 4: Well, It's a Start." Apr 21, 2004 6:53:59 pm PDT at 6:53:59 pm PDT.

Buffy will diminish, and go into the West, and remain just a girl. Or something.