I think Cordelia/Angel could have worked had Greenwalt been gone.

NO! Bfyy (sic) NAngle 4EVAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

I didn't see much that *needed* forgiving.

I think I agree with Matt - my problem with season 4 was the residual bitterness over what they did to Cordy. I LIKED her turning into the bad guy, and I thought ConCord was wonderfully wrong (and put a stake in A/C - Angel's mystical happy aside, which I also thought worked), but the early parts of the season were hard to take with Angel going on about his lost love.

I think trying to get Angel and Cordy together was a bigger error than the Magic=Crack of BtVS 6. And the fact that they had to basically de-snark Cordy in the process was salt in the wound.

I think they did explore it from "Shiny Happy People" through "Home".

Oh, I agree with you in general, but I meant Jasmine's motivation, specifically. Because up until then, we saw her as the villain because she was, she was eating people all the time. But in "Peace Out," it was so interesting to hear her defend herself, and I suddenly wasn't sure whether she had actually been evil to begin with.

but the early parts of the season were hard to take with Angel going on about his lost love.

I think trying to get Angel and Cordy together was a bigger error than the Magic=Crack of BtVS 6. And the fact that they had to basically de-snark Cordy in the process was salt in the wound.

I think it suffered far more because they cheated and took shortcuts, and told us too much, than because it was an impossible pairing. It could have been possible, but it was never given a believable foundation, and the execution was spotty and poor.

I'm having flashbacks to watching Cordy and Angel go at it in Waiting in the Wings.

Make it stop! Make it stop!

So, what's the consensus on last night's Angel? I'm dying to see it, and I keep looking longingly at the Angel thread. But I'll remain strong.

But quite aside from the Crapture, Season 3 took my favorite fictional platonic relationship EVAH and turned it into an ill-conceived romantic one that had less convincing chemistry than the real life pairing of Kevin Spacey and Helen Hunt

First: snerk.

Second: Oh yeah. That part. I can see, if one was seriously into Cordy, how that would be offpissing. I mean, S3 broke up the best couple since Dan and Casey (for which I may one day forgive it but THEIRLUVWUZSOPUR!). And there was a LOT of crap. Which I forgive it for what it set up. Also for the naked parts.

Rayne: it was loved.

I suddenly wasn't sure whether she had actually been evil to begin with.

That's such a hard question. She took away free will, but gave complete happiness. She ate people, but that's her food. Some of us eat cows and pigs (and they are yummy). I'm not sure that she fits the defintion of "evil"

I'm having flashbacks to watching Cordy and Angel go at it in Waiting in the Wings.

See that's one of the times (the vision that took Angel's soul in season 4 being the other) I didn't mind it, because it wasn't supposed to be real. Plus, Cordy still had her snark going.

I cringed through every minute of that Cordy/Angel crap. Oh god, and that line! You know the one I'm talking about. I'm only alive when you're inside me. Worst!Dialogue!Ever! Horrible! Nightmare inducing!

And I hated all the Wes-mooning-over-Fred stuff.

Yet, oddly enough, overall I liked Waiting in the Wings. I was seriously about to give up Angel before that episode. But it convinced me to give a little more time.

So, what's the consensus on last night's Angel? I'm dying to see it, and I keep looking longingly at the Angel thread. But I'll remain strong.

It was fantastic. It might be my favorite, ever. Everything was strong: characterization, continuity, action, dialogue, acting. I didn't even feel like the lit the set with a 25 watt bulb. It was frigging amazing. You get to see it tonight, right Rayne?