Yeah, that's what I was thinking, Cindy. The Big Bad actually seemed sinister in the first three episodes, but there's only so long you can drag it out. Glory was the other villian who suffered massively from being a)overpowered and b)introduced too early. They really needed a better reason for her not doing more.

Honestly, though, for me the rot had set in. No matter how much better season 7 could have been, it would still have been building off the second half of season 6, and I'm not sure there was a way to fix all the stuff in that.

Thanks for the heads up, Cindy. I white fonted in an abundance of caution because I'm still pretty newish to these parts. I had recently been visited by the stompies because I mentioned something from the current season of Angel without spoiler font. I'll get the hang of it sooner or later. :-)

You're welcome. Actually it brought up that we needed to modify the thread description (visible at the top of the first page of this thread).

Oh yeah, speaking of untied threads, they never did say where the talisman in the season 7 premiere came from, did they?

This is the thing that bugs me as much as anything. All of sudden we had a red tide of red herring in S7. And none of them fucking panned out as interesting. Or even necessarily coherent. It was cheap.

WROD.

Oh yeah, speaking of untied threads, they never did say where the talisman in the season 7 premiere came from, did they?

What bothered me more than the hanging plot threads, were the hanging character threads. I didn't enjoy S6, but they took a lot of very risky character chances that year, only to completely ignore them in S7. Oh, they addressed the PLOT of S6, but they never, ever addressed character development.

They break up Anya and Xander for very interesting reasons that hint at flaws and problems ingrained in the characters. Then they explore it a bit in "Selfless" and then it's never addressed again. There was so freakin' much they could have done with both Xander and Anya and we got nothing.

Willow's "character development" consisted almost solely of one extremely boring affair with Kennedy. Buffy got to make a lot of speeches and apparently not only forgave Spike for attacking her, but also seemed to have no lingering issues about it after a few episodes. And Giles got to have the lamest subplot in ME history. It's so sad when you've got an actor like ASH, and all you can come up for him to do is to act distant and not touch things.

I watched Storyteller a little while ago, and I was amazed at something I didn't notice when it first aired. (I'm sure everyone here already picked up on this.) Buffy is the storyteller. She hates Andrew so much, because everything he says reminds her of the lies she's telling these people all the time. I think the reason I didn't notice this then (besides the fact that I'm slow) is that the rest of the season gave no indication of this kind of layering to Buffy's character. God, it was just a shallow mess.

Oh yeah, speaking of untied threads, they never did say where the talisman in the season 7 premiere came from, did they?

I've decided that in my personal fanon, Wood planted it in order to determine whether or not Buffy was the slayer. Once he was certain she was, he decided to hire her to keep an eye on her. But in Sunnydale, a talisman could end up in the high school ladies' room any old way. A student, teacher, or janitor, dabbling in the occult, could have left it there. Spike, under the thrall of the FE, could have obtained and left it there. One of the FE's Harbingers could have planted it. It was dropped, sure, but it wasn't like the story made little-to-no sense without an explanation for its presence.

The Eye of Botox and Not!Joyce bothered me more. There are explanations for them, but they should have been used to better effect, and I think if they had, the story would have been better.

I don't fault the writers too much for the use of Giles. I was under the impression at the time, that they were never sure when they would have access to ASH.

I do think though, that the is it Giles/it is Evilex shell game went on too long. There's misdirection, and then there's just poor storytelling (Spike's Give the bitch what she deserves is another example of the too heavy-handed use of misdirection).

I watched Storyteller a little while ago, and I was amazed at something I didn't notice when it first aired. (I'm sure everyone here already picked up on this.) Buffy is the storyteller. She hates Andrew so much, because everything he says reminds her of the lies she's telling these people all the time. I think the reason I didn't notice this then (besides the fact that I'm slow) is that the rest of the season gave no indication of this kind of layering to Buffy's character. God, it was just a shallow mess.

I don't remember that in Storyteller, at all. I am not doubting you, I just never noticed it, so you're not the last one here, at least. Would you explicate, a little?

The only bit I remember when Buffy talked about lying is when she was trying to get Andrew nervous, and said she was tired of lying and telling everyone they were going to be okay (or live, or whatever) but that they wouldn't. Most of the revelations in this seemed to be about Andrew, Wood, and Xander/Anya, as far as I can recall, that is.

I don't remember that in Storyteller, at all. I am not doubting you, I just never noticed it, so you're not the last one here, at least. Would you explicate, a little?

Well, I could be reading too much into it, but Buffy is the only one bothered by Andrew and his documentory. So bothered that the other characters notice and wonder why. Then there are several references to all the speeches she's been making lately. And when she confronts Andrew on the seal, he says:

Andrew: You said we could all get through this.

Buffy: I made it up. I'm making it all up. So, what kind of hero does that make me?

And then later,

Andrew: You weren't really going to stab me, were you?

Buffy: I wasn't going to stab you.

Andrew: What if the tears didn't work?

Buffy doesn't answer.

It's very apparent how disgusted Buffy is with herself, but she's still sort of clinging to the lie that she's the hero. She was probably going to stab him if that hadn't worked.

It's very apparent how disgusted Buffy is with herself, but she's still sort of clinging to the lie that she's the hero. She was probably going to stab him if that hadn't worked.

Interesting, though, that that makes this the point where she decides to stop lying.

It's very apparent how disgusted Buffy is with herself, but she's still sort of clinging to the lie that she's the hero. She was probably going to stab him if that hadn't worked.

I loved the ambiguity of her non-response. It emphasized her conversation with Giles in "Lies My Parents Told Me" when she told Giles she could make a hard decision and made you realize she really might sacrifice Dawn if she had to fight Glory again. It also punched up the fact that the conversation with Giles was totally pointless from Buffy's point of view, leading both her and the viewer to realize that Giles really had nothing left to teach her. I loved it when she actually told Giles that (for Pod!Giles had so supremely pissed me off) at the end of the episode. But, part of the package of being the Slayer is maintaining that facade of "we will prevail." So Buffy did lie to everyone for most of the season, because that was what they wanted to hear. It's what they expected of her. Just as she expected it from Giles in season 2 in "Lie to Me," but didn't believe it because she knew not to believe it. Unfortunately, nobody in season 7 except Buffy really seemed to understand that, not even Giles anymore.

So Buffy did lie to everyone for most of the season, because that was what they wanted to hear. It's what they expected of her. Just as she expected it from Giles in season 2 in "Lie to Me," but didn't believe it because she knew not to believe it. Unfortunately, nobody in season 7 except Buffy really seemed to understand that, not even Giles anymore.

It would have been interesting if they had thrown this idea into the fight in "Empty Places."

Yes, yes, yes! That's why "Empty Places" pissed me off so much. I was ready to take an Uzi to the entire Scooby gang, even Dawn. It was a worse breach of faith than them pulling her out of Heaven in S6.