Askye, I wanted to pick at a couple of things you said on the last thread:

...I honestly and truly believe that Spike would have raped Buffy.

Right there with you.

I never believed for one minute that Spike every held any kind of true, real love for Buffy. I always saw it as dark, stalkery, obsessive and creepy as hell. Everyone keeps talking about how much Spike loves Buffy and look--here's proof! he made the Buffybot. But how sick and twisted is that? I don't see the Buffybot as a romantic gesture but creepy and stalkery and a horrible thing. He made a big ass shrine to her and stole her clothes and obsessed over her and Buffy knew that and yes there sex was bitter and disfunctional and it should have stopped. But for god sake there was nothing romantic or sweet about Spike's obsession of Buffy.

Spike making the Buffybot and his stalkery, creepy obsession was neither romantic nor sweet. But there was a twisted, perverted type of love there. The kind of love an evil vampire with no soul would have. A selfish, depraved, and squicky kind of love. That's why I believe Souled!Spike's love is real. But as a souled being it manifests itself in healthy, honorable and socially accepted ways. So less of the creepiness and attempts at rape and violence. And more of the romantic and sweet gestures. Standing up for her, watching her back, taking orders from her, holding her etc.

Look at Angelus. As Angel he loved her. As Angelus he wanted to kill all her friends and torture her. Because she made him feel. But we still believe that Angel loves her.

I can not tell you how much I hate what Spike has become. How much I loathe what the writers have done with Spike and Buffy. I truly, honestly believed that when Spike rode off on the motorcycle he was going to get his chip out so he could come back and try to kill Buffy. I never once in a million years thought he'd want a soul so he could come back and be a "good man."

I believed that too. And I don't think evil Spike was capable of the conscious desire to get a soul. But deep down in that twisted love portion of his being, that's what he wanted. And that's what he got.

Buffy has no better reason to stake Spike than Holtz and/or Connor had to kill Angel. The frustration that some people feel over Spike's transformation, mirrors Holtz and Wood's predicament. Is it moral, just or right to stake the souled vampire who killed/attempted to rape before he was souled?

Am I alone in the not feeling the Andrew love?

I can't help it with the Andrew love.

I used to be him. Not loving him would bespeak a deap-seated pathology on my part.

When Spike was leaving Sunnydale he said he wanted her to get what she deserved.

But when he was in front of the demon who ended up giving him the soul he said he wanted to be what he was.

That's two different things.

Shoot! I missed the beginning ... of the end, (sob!).

First 50?

Heh. Barely.

I can't help it with the Andrew love.

I used to be him.

Dude, I've *seen* your purity test results. No way were you Andrew. Unless Andrew had a really interesting Mardi Gras.

And yeah, I'm a total Andrew fangirl.

The explanation from the writers was that Spike knew he was going to get his soul. Eh. I'm not as anti-that interpretation as others have been, but they weren't clear.

Man, ita's redundant today.

I'm not as anti-that interpretation as others have been, but they weren't clear.

I'm not either. I think it was poorly executed by the writers, the directors and the actor, but I knew it all along. It was a sloppy misdirection.

WRT Andrew, I would rather have seen Jonathan live. I have to admit I've enjoyed Andrew, but I resent him being as prominent when there's so little time left. I think I would have not felt so resentful had Jonathan filled up all this time. But I really wouldn't have wanted to see Jonathan kill Andrew - I wouldn't have wanted Jonathan to fall that far. So - eh.