I guess I don't see the problem with voting No if it comes to a vote, and therefore don't understand the reason why the mere idea of a vote is so upsetting. Forgive me. Besides, I'm assuming that, if it does come to a vote, it won't pass. Hence my not understanding why there's still so much A) heat, and B) resistance to articulating what, precisely, is on the table at the moment.

Personally, I think we should bring it to a vote if and only if we are considering adding a section to the etiquette page. And then it should be a simple Yes/No proposal.

I think the resistance to a vote is coming from a reaction to the quick consensus that was reached earlier. So maybe the people that have been here since the beginning should lay back and let the ones who just got here catch up?

FWIW I am pro codifying the profile-identification of csockpuppets to regular user IDs, and I don't much care if we vote or just consense*. I think the ID suggestion is a good compromise between banning SPs and doing nothing, and it should be put in some form of rules/etiquette so that people who didn't read this discussion will know that it's something we'd like them to do.

• unless it's in our rules that changes to the rules need voting, in which case I say we should follow the rules and vote.

Finally, love how apropos my tagline is.

Hey, no fair making me laugh at myself.

What can I say, it's a classic line. Hee. I might have milked it for all it's worth, though (pun totally intended).

Now tempted to change my tag to "the cockpuppet formerly known as Fuckface".

I think the resistance to a vote is coming from a reaction to the quick consensus that was reached earlier. So maybe the people that have been here since the beginning should lay back and let the ones who just got here catch up?

If that's a request to butt out now, I will, but FTR I was one of the latecomers and not part of the initial consensus.

And if they do, and if they're asked to identify themselves and refuse, then that moves them at least into the category of rude behavior, which is dealt with in a number of ways, both formal and informal. There's all kinds of behavior that might not be specifically mandated or prohibited but in practice are community norms. I'd rather see us build this into those norms than make it a Rule.

I'm nodding in agreement with brenda here.

how do you see handling refusal to ID? It is rude? It'll just a a thing we all yelled about for days but decided not to write down anywhere else? Is that fair to newcomers?

This is how I'd expect it would be handled from here on out: Buffy's Leather Pants show up and start posting. People either laugh, or roll their eyes and scroll. People who want to know who's wearing the pants go and check the profile. If there's no ID, someone says, "Hey, Leather Pants, can you ID yourself in your profile? Generally that's how we do things around here." Leather Pants either says "Oops, sorry, I didn't know" and makes the change, or says "WTF? Clearly I am Buffy's Leather Pants and no one else, ha ha ha!"

There's no way to know here if Leather Pants is someone who was privy to this conversation, so IMO it's best to proceed as though they weren't, giving them the benefit of the doubt. So someone else says "No, really, please ID yourself. A lot of us consider it rude if you don't." After that, if the person still isn't forthcoming with an ID, it seems clear to me that it's not someone who's interested in maintaining a good relationship with the community. Then I think it's appropriate to take it to Bureaucracy and say "This person is being rude and I'd like them to be warned."

That being said, I know that there are people here who would strongly oppose warning someone for that kind of behavior. However, I think it's pretty unlikely that we'd have a situation like that to begin with; I think (well, I hope) that 19 times out of 20 the person would say "oops, sorry" and provide an ID. So what I'm wondering is whether or not we could hold off on deciding what to do about a recalcitrant sockpuppet* until such a situation actually arises. In other words, I'm not overly fond of codifying the "ID yourself" rule because I doubt that it will really be necessary. t /shiny-eyed optimist

*Live at the Paradise! The Recalcitrant Sockpuppets!

Also,

Suppose someone wanted advice on a situation, but didn't want to 'fess up to being in the particular situation. Uses a different name, talks it out, gets some advice, no harm no foul, goes back to being whoever. Is that a huge problem?

See, I think this is actually a different issue from sockpuppeting. We have had, and probably will have, situations like this, and I don't hear anyone saying that they were offended or upset or annoyed by them.

I don't want the term Sock Puppets in there anywhere. If we are going to add the verbage I just want to have it very matter of fact and dealing with users that maintain multiple logins.

Except that, as Denise mentioned above, there's a difference between me posting as Buffy's Leather Pants--in the Persona of the Pants--and Allyson using her LJ name to post gossip she doesn't want linked to her official fandom profile. So I agree that "Sockpuppet" might not be the best term to use, but I don't know what the best way to distinguish between those two types of multiple login situations in official language would be.

Sorry to post and run, but I'm off to build a chicken coop. Have a lovely Saturday, everyone.

I don't have much to add at this point, but will note that Kate and brenda are doing a good job of articulating my perspective.

I think everybody felt pleasantly refreshed at the notion we could come to a quick and easy consensus on this issue without a vote. Now, that seems premature. As Sophia notes, the vote itself is a way to get a more accurate consensus (less bullshitty), so I won't hang on to happy consensus land.

And I think that puts to big a responsibility on the shoulders of ita adn Jon, who will be making the changes, if any, we the Buffistas, deem necessary.

Thanks Sophia, but I don't feel burdened in the least. If all we're doing is updating the Etiquette page or FAQ, then it won't take more than a few minutes to implement.

I just don't think we can make changes to the documents that say how we want people to act without voting on it.