I just watched the recorded "Something Wicked". It's been a long time since I watched the interaction with John so I may ramble for a bit feeling the need to think it out myself.

I am further convinced that John didn't have to do or say much in Flagstaff to devastate Dean. In SW, he was just holding Sam and making sure he was alright. Most, if not all of the actual recrimination that happened was going on inside of Dean's head. Later, when the boys run into John in their present day, he talks and interacts with them in the same way. He's actually portrayed as a softer more caring man than they describe. They don't describe a teddy bear, but JDM is playing one.

Now, that said--

At the end of SW, Sam says he wishes sometimes that he could have the innocence of not knowing there were real monsters in the world. Now several seasons later, knowing more of the backstory, I got all riled. "Really Sammy? Seriously? You wish you could have had more innocence? Did you seriously just say that to Dean's face? Dean looks at him with not a trace of bitterness and says sometimes he wishes that for him too. There was nothing fraternal in it at all. No rivalry or bitterness. That was all from being a parental figure. Not caring that your children have it easier than you did, but actually setting that as your goal.

I also realized the reason that it didn't grate when I saw the episode way back is because I hadn't been on their journey long enough to understand how important that reaction from Dean was.

The thing is--Dean knew it in that scene. He knew all of the things that I didn't know yet and he still had that reaction. To me, that demonstrated to a greater degree how much more parental he is to Sam. It was kind of like going back and appreciating Dean letting Sam work on the engine of the Impala. Then I was able to watch Sam and understand how really clueless he was about Dean. He didn't say that to hurt Dean, I don't even think he knew it would hurt Dean any of the times that he left, but S5 Sam knows. He's heard enough of the stories now and seen enough of the wishes or dreams to get it. I'm amazed at how far they have evolved the character of Sam.

Dang, I am ready for Thursday!

Says he keeps hearing that he's too busy to appear on the show again, but that he's never been contacted. However given the way he hear's the character of John's been trashed he doesn't think he could go back and play him again anyway.

Thanks so much for linking that interview Morgana. I've heard JDM say this on more than one occasion. That he would like to reprise the role, but he is never asked. I think that indicates that maybe Kripke also agrees with Bev that the narrative reason for John to return is gone.

That said-- eff you Kripke. I want JDM on their show reading the phone book to the boys if nothing else. I DO NOT want to see a smiling John waving from Heaven with Mary. I want a real conversation between Dean and John. I want Dean to be able to vocalize to John how broken that he is (not that Dean is that self aware, but a little bit of a dialogue). I want to see some of the anger of being made to be his brother's keeper.

Also, that is very Not!John when JDM laughs. It's very cute and geeky and I was more than a little surprised. I guess I've never heard him laugh before.

The thing is--Dean knew it in that scene. He knew all of the things that I didn't know yet and he still had that reaction. To me, that demonstrated to a greater degree how much more parental he is to Sam. It was kind of like going back and appreciating Dean letting Sam work on the engine of the Impala. Then I was able to watch Sam and understand how really clueless he was about Dean. He didn't say that to hurt Dean, I don't even think he knew it would hurt Dean any of the times that he left, but S5 Sam knows. He's heard enough of the stories now and seen enough of the wishes or dreams to get it. I'm amazed at how far they have evolved the character of Sam.

I'm going to marry this paragraph, k?

Cool with me. Ima go make out with giggling JDM .

Nobody's ever agreed with me, but in Mystery Spot, on the second Wednesday, when Sam comes off the bed and charges toward Dean and hugs him relentlessly (a JP improvisation, btw. JA wasn't expecting it. Bravo, I say), I've always denied the 'cesters about that scene. To me, Sam sees his de facto mom, restored from the dead.

JA apparently works well with surprise. JP spiked the eggnog in the Christmas ep, JA took that first swig unsuspecting. And the director told the Lisa actress to kiss Dean in the "It's not my life," scene, and didn't tell JA she was going to.

I agree with you. My mind didn't go to any wincest place. I didn't think of at the time him seeing his parent returning because I already knew how much Sam loved Dean as a brother and just chalked it up to that. But now, I'd go so far as to say

To me, Sam sees his de facto mom, restored from the dead.

This.

The thought of JP improvising furthers the image that I have of him as the perpetual little kid so enjoying life and what he is doing. He is so adorkable. JA being able to work so well with things thrown at him in improv is pretty impressive and fully in line with the man I imagine that takes his craft very seriously. I'm so glad that he has had JP to keep things light and goofy in such a dark series.

Beverly -- But you haven't answered the question of how you wanted to see his character used. What do you think his path should have been, and where and how would you have changed things? Outline for us the show you wanted to see, the show as you think it should have been.

I will try to do this tomorrow (or later today, I guess), I promise. I have repair people coming and their arrival “window” opens in less than 6 hours. (Doesn’t anyone just give an arrival time any more? They all give 4 hour approximations.) Anyway, I need to try to get some sleep before they show up.

Beverly I'm going to need an extension on my homework assignment. After the guys left today I had a medical issue happen, and I'm still dealing with the fallout. It didn't leave me with the time to do any analysis. Sorry. (Foiled by real life intruding on the more fascinating world of make believe yet again!)

Just watched "Bad Day at Black Rock." JP's really good at physical comedy. And JA's "I'm Batman," was awesome.

I can't work out why JP's physical comedy in Swap Meat didn't work for me. I thought it was because I wasn't as down with goofy Sam, but I loved him in Bad Day at Black Rock. He was fine and funny when we were looking at JP at Greg's, but Greg in Sam made me feel Mottsy.

I just checked an author's profile and she says she hates John and thinks Wincest is sick and wrong. Now, she's not writing John and I don't read Wincest, but now I feel less kindly disposed towards her fic. I should just stay away from profiles.

The debate over John's character is what pulled me into SPN. Perkins and Juliana were talking about it during a brunch and I had no clue. Next thing I knew, I had Season 1 on loan and mainlined the whole thing. Then I was begging for Season 2 and Perkins caught me up to where they were on Season 3.

I wonder if my thoughts on John would be different if I had watched the series from the beginning instead of jumping in during Season 3.

Psst, you mean Gary, ita.

My sad moment of the day: Watching Dead Man's Blood, and Sam is questioning Dean's loyalty to John, the way he accepts orders as given, etc., and he asks something like, "Are you just going to let him tell you what to do?"

And Dean looks away for a minute, so briefly, but you know he doesn't like it either, that he wishes he could make his own decisions more, but when he turns to Sam he says, "If that's what it takes."

And after last night's discussion I thought, there's a little boy desperate to do whatever dad wants so he doesn't go away, too.

she hates John and thinks Wincest is sick and wrong

I love people who feel the need to wear their morality right there on their sleeve profile. It's going to be pretty clear she's not down with it when there are no Wincest or John-centric stories in her list.