Der, Gary, yes.

there's a little boy desperate to do whatever dad wants so he doesn't go away, too

He's just trying to keep the peace. Just like telling his mother that John loves her. Whatever it takes.

It's going to be pretty clear she's not down with it when there are no Wincest or John-centric stories in her list.

I mean, I guess it's better I know she doesn't like John before I stumbled onto a story of hers featuring him (I read some weird stuff yesterday with him being way alcoholic and abusive and having a 13 year old Dean forcing him to apologise to Sam and explaining John's limitations to his younger brother--dude, I like Dean and all, but no. That's not him). But really? Putting all your ships and your likes and your anti-ships and anti-likes in your profile (and not in her interests--in the free-text portion)? Damn. That's mission-like.

I've had some brotherly equality stuff rolling over in the back of my brain. Sam seems to have been acquiring of the understanding recently. It's nowhere outright stated that he gets the parental role Dean played, is it?

But he explicitly takes the position of younger brother in Point of No Return, and Dean relinquishes the position of parent. Or does he? Or does he just admit that Sam's a big boy now--or is that all the same thing?

I'm just trying to work out where Dean is placing Sam in relationship to him. It seems clear that Sam is still looking up to Dean.

I'm not really allowed to be here (Hi, Lee!) but I think Sam might be able to see that Dean was more parent than brother if he thought about it, but I don't think he's actually taken it that far yet.

I think what Dean is doing in PoNR is admitting that Sam doesn't need his guidance and supervision anymore. I'm not sure that's the same thing as relinquishing the role of parent, though, because even when you can see that a child is *grown* you don't necessarily want to stop giving that guidance or protection. You just agree to try.

It's nowhere outright stated that he gets the parental role Dean played, is it?

I can't find a transcript, but I always accepted the gifting of the amulet as that moment. I'm going strictly from memory here, which is always a risky thing, but youngSam was wrapping the amulet saying Uncle Bobby had given it to him specifically to be given to his father because it was special. After John had disappointed him (again) by not showing up, and Dean had done his best to make Christmas happen, Sam gave the amulet, which was to be given to his father, to him. He pretty obviously turned all his loyalties and trust to Dean at that point.

Other than that, I can understand why people would view young Sam who wanted the yummy cereal as oblivious, but grown up Sam isn't stupid. If we know John wasn't around and Dean was he certainly does.

2nd Sneak Peek

I think it's a huge leap for an 8 year old to make. I can see him at that age making (and it's what I'd assumed) the leap of "You're here for me, he's not. I'm important to you."

I think Sam pretty clearly sees where John failed them (and perhaps exaggerates, depending on who you ask), but the eureka moment of the flip side of that--all of what Dean did to try and fill the gap (and I think it was a pretty good job, until Sam's unrest meant he had to leave), I still don't think I've seen onscreen.

From Dark Side of the Moon, I'm wondering how deep the line "I just never realized how long you've been cleaning up Dad's messes." goes.

I just think that he's more keyed into how abnormal their upbringing was, as opposed to how much Dean did to try and right that imbalance--even as Dean thought hunting was his only choice, and hoped Sam would want to do it too.

A lot of eye-opening happened recently. So he may very well have realised. I just want to hear it. I want to see the looks on their faces during the exchange. I will send flowers. Flowers for everyone.

That sneak peek is terribly tantalisingly short. But angst free, mostly, so that's cool.

None of what ita said, but I did get hit with a strong whiff of the meeting of the Black Thorn or whatever it was on Angel, near the end .

I love their faces, man. SHOW.

Man, I need to do an Angel rewatch. I totally didn't catch that, and I think you're very right.

I'm sure it all portends doom and gloom, just that, compared to some of what we've seen so far? Unicorn lollipops.

Sorry. Crackfic residue.

SHOW NIGHT.

I suddenly flashed on a fic where I think Sam was literally shooting rainbows out his ass. Um.

I can't remember if I said it here, but for those interested JDM is on the Craig Ferguson show tonight, 12:30 a.m. CBS.