Beverly -- But you haven't answered the question of how you wanted to see his character used. What do you think his path should have been, and where and how would you have changed things? Outline for us the show you wanted to see, the show as you think it should have been.

I will try to do this tomorrow (or later today, I guess), I promise. I have repair people coming and their arrival “window” opens in less than 6 hours. (Doesn’t anyone just give an arrival time any more? They all give 4 hour approximations.) Anyway, I need to try to get some sleep before they show up.

Beverly I'm going to need an extension on my homework assignment. After the guys left today I had a medical issue happen, and I'm still dealing with the fallout. It didn't leave me with the time to do any analysis. Sorry. (Foiled by real life intruding on the more fascinating world of make believe yet again!)

Just watched "Bad Day at Black Rock." JP's really good at physical comedy. And JA's "I'm Batman," was awesome.

I can't work out why JP's physical comedy in Swap Meat didn't work for me. I thought it was because I wasn't as down with goofy Sam, but I loved him in Bad Day at Black Rock. He was fine and funny when we were looking at JP at Greg's, but Greg in Sam made me feel Mottsy.

I just checked an author's profile and she says she hates John and thinks Wincest is sick and wrong. Now, she's not writing John and I don't read Wincest, but now I feel less kindly disposed towards her fic. I should just stay away from profiles.

The debate over John's character is what pulled me into SPN. Perkins and Juliana were talking about it during a brunch and I had no clue. Next thing I knew, I had Season 1 on loan and mainlined the whole thing. Then I was begging for Season 2 and Perkins caught me up to where they were on Season 3.

I wonder if my thoughts on John would be different if I had watched the series from the beginning instead of jumping in during Season 3.

Psst, you mean Gary, ita.

My sad moment of the day: Watching Dead Man's Blood, and Sam is questioning Dean's loyalty to John, the way he accepts orders as given, etc., and he asks something like, "Are you just going to let him tell you what to do?"

And Dean looks away for a minute, so briefly, but you know he doesn't like it either, that he wishes he could make his own decisions more, but when he turns to Sam he says, "If that's what it takes."

And after last night's discussion I thought, there's a little boy desperate to do whatever dad wants so he doesn't go away, too.

she hates John and thinks Wincest is sick and wrong

I love people who feel the need to wear their morality right there on their sleeve profile. It's going to be pretty clear she's not down with it when there are no Wincest or John-centric stories in her list.

Der, Gary, yes.

there's a little boy desperate to do whatever dad wants so he doesn't go away, too

He's just trying to keep the peace. Just like telling his mother that John loves her. Whatever it takes.

It's going to be pretty clear she's not down with it when there are no Wincest or John-centric stories in her list.

I mean, I guess it's better I know she doesn't like John before I stumbled onto a story of hers featuring him (I read some weird stuff yesterday with him being way alcoholic and abusive and having a 13 year old Dean forcing him to apologise to Sam and explaining John's limitations to his younger brother--dude, I like Dean and all, but no. That's not him). But really? Putting all your ships and your likes and your anti-ships and anti-likes in your profile (and not in her interests--in the free-text portion)? Damn. That's mission-like.

I've had some brotherly equality stuff rolling over in the back of my brain. Sam seems to have been acquiring of the understanding recently. It's nowhere outright stated that he gets the parental role Dean played, is it?

But he explicitly takes the position of younger brother in Point of No Return, and Dean relinquishes the position of parent. Or does he? Or does he just admit that Sam's a big boy now--or is that all the same thing?

I'm just trying to work out where Dean is placing Sam in relationship to him. It seems clear that Sam is still looking up to Dean.

I'm not really allowed to be here (Hi, Lee!) but I think Sam might be able to see that Dean was more parent than brother if he thought about it, but I don't think he's actually taken it that far yet.

I think what Dean is doing in PoNR is admitting that Sam doesn't need his guidance and supervision anymore. I'm not sure that's the same thing as relinquishing the role of parent, though, because even when you can see that a child is *grown* you don't necessarily want to stop giving that guidance or protection. You just agree to try.

It's nowhere outright stated that he gets the parental role Dean played, is it?

I can't find a transcript, but I always accepted the gifting of the amulet as that moment. I'm going strictly from memory here, which is always a risky thing, but youngSam was wrapping the amulet saying Uncle Bobby had given it to him specifically to be given to his father because it was special. After John had disappointed him (again) by not showing up, and Dean had done his best to make Christmas happen, Sam gave the amulet, which was to be given to his father, to him. He pretty obviously turned all his loyalties and trust to Dean at that point.

Other than that, I can understand why people would view young Sam who wanted the yummy cereal as oblivious, but grown up Sam isn't stupid. If we know John wasn't around and Dean was he certainly does.

2nd Sneak Peek