Ellen and Jo were as heroic as Mary and Deana. I know some people were upset by the Ellen and Jo dying but I was proud of them. All were kick ass women who were integral to the story. In my mind, this is Supernatural and everyone important dies. Or will in the next season and a half. Better to let them die doing something heroic.

I didn't dislike Cassie as much as others. I find the actress gorgeous and I thought she looked good with JA which was part of the point.

You mean Ellen and Jo's deaths are considered genderfail by some?

I saw a fair amount of outrage about that--it was part of what soured Consuela, if memory serves. But narratively, it made sense for me, and they went out swinging, and I get chills just thinking about it in enough detail to type about it again, which is a good death, in my books.

I just...I'm like Plei. I wouldn't have seen crippling Steven Williams' Bobby as racefail either, but I bet a fair amount of fandom would have.

But I'm on record as getting a lot of eyeroll out of fandom's race sensitivity. Maybe I'm not American enough to take umbrage, or something. It's a lack of comprehension I share with my sister. I'm so glad that compelling black characters show up, for god's sake. I'll howl when I think they are stereotypes, and SPN hasn't really set that off for me.

I lay the blame for Cassie squarely at the feet of casting and Megalyn Echikunwoke. I've never seen her not suck at anything. She was a gaping void, most notably, in The 4400.

She was a gaping void, most notably, in The 4400.

This is the only other place that I have seen her and in 4400 she was playing a rapidly aged woman/child so I thought lack of emoting was a little on purpose. As it's not on purpose, then that may be why I haven't seen her in more things.

She was also on CSI: Miami playing a perplexedly drug-addicted coroner. She has never made emotional sense to me in anything I've seen her do. If she were a model, I guess I'd think she were pretty, but she "acts" and it's just so flat.

I remember that conversation actually, but the way Plei phrased it, I wasn't sure. I am completely distracted today, though. And not with pretty angsty boys who fight demons, either, sadly.

I think I stopped watching The 4400 before she showed up, because people have mentioned her being on the show and I don't remember it at all.

For the record, I may have wish we'd gotten to see more of Ellen and Jo, but their characters as they were written, and as they died, were pure win for me. Abandon All Hope was the hardest this show has ever made me cry.

That's how I feel Amy. Honestly I go back and forth on if I love Ellen or Mary more. Mary pulled ahead once I found out that she was a hunter as well. However, Ellen was definitely one of my favorites and I would have watched the Ellen Harvelle show. I had to lose her at some point though and this was a brave death.

I have to say, I quit SPN for genderfail, but it was a while ago, so I have no opinion about Ellen & Jo's deaths, other than, SAD! But I think at the time I saw some of the racefail that ita didn't consider problematic. For me, though, it was cumulative. I probably wouldn't have bristled at perceived racefail if I weren't also bristling at genderfail.

The genderfails for me were twofold: oversexualising female victims, and caving to fangirl aversion to regular female characters. But neither, obviously, enough to overcome my love for the show. And the women I like, I like a lot. Ellen and Mary and Pamela and Missouri rock. Meg, as played by Nikki Aycox was pretty cool too. Ruby, as played by Katie Cassidy, I kinda liked. But Ruby in general makes me all overprotective of Sam, so it's hard for me to appreciate her with any sort of sanity.

I still don't like Bela as written though.

Yeah, Bela was a deliberate omission for me. I can't work out how to fix her, but I damned well could suggest fixing the boys' reactions to her. SHE SHOT SAM. STOP BEING SO NOT UNNICE TO HER.