I'm also not sure he hates himself. I think he's just convinced he doesn't matter, which is different to me.

I like this distinction, Amy.

I'm just still hung up on his self-loathing in YCHtT, and wondering if it will ever be broached again.

I think at this point Sam and Dean will be less unhappy hunting than doing anything else. I think they would be closest to happy if they kept hunting, but the hunting was lower pressure, with no big bad making the stakes high, and the monsters showing up infrequently that that they could get some recreation and non-hunting travel in between hunts.

I think both find killing evil son-of-a-bitches genuinely satisfying, though all the people they can't save is one thing that keeps them from actually liking hunting.

I think Dean was relatively happy in S1, with the caveat that a lot of that came from having Sam with him again.

But he never had any overlap with having both his father and Sam and not the looming shadow of YED. That's why I don't give him any happy points.

And I do think that the speech he gave Ben had distinct tinges of self-loathing in it. But I guess I don't see how to devalue yourself as much as he does in any context outside of hunting without having hatred there.

He's a thrill junkie to some extent, so there's always going to be that adrenaline rush for him, I think.

I think Dean hates himself and any hate it appears he has for hunting is more his low self esteem issues than actual hate of the trade. I'm sure he doesn't hate what his brother and father did, although he probably hates that he had to do it. I like to think he can at least take pride in a job well done, and lives saved.

I was remembering Dean's expression in Croatoan when he told Sam he was tired. And that was before the weight of the world came crashing down on top of him, pretty much literally. Sam's death, Hell, the angel's expectations, Sam's addiction, the demonic forces chasing them, learning about their half-brother, knowing that as fast as he ran to catch up it was almost certainly a contest where either the world would lose or he'd lose his brother. No wonder he's exhausted. I hope for his sake the year with Lisa helped him recuperate a bit, but the half year or so with RoboSam would have worn him down yet again.

I think he gains satisfaction in putting down evil things and in helping people. I don't see any of the glimpses of joy we used to get at the beginning. Either it's all been beaten out of him, or he has undergone an attitude shift towards hunting.

edit -- sorry - just realized I didn't reference the quotes at the top. They're there because I agree with the sentiments and see Dean as an amalgam of them.

I don't see any of the glimpses of joy we used to get at the beginning

I'm still clinging to the stupid goofy smiles we got when Sam got his soul back. It wasn't an overarching happy, but good god, it was nice to see some unadulterated joy that wasn't just "boobies!"

I think to hate himself he needs to want to be something better or different. And with Ben, in that speech, maybe it was true -- he hated that he couldn't be (or didn't believe he could be) what Ben needed. And possibly Lisa, too.

But on the whole I think he just doesn't care enough. In my head, he's come to accept that he is who he is, and it's not much. In other words, DEEEEEEEAN.

Sam, on the other hand, I think was probably pretty happy at Stanford. But I think Sam is and always has been better at compartmentalization, and understanding who he is. As far back as After School Special you see it -- when the teacher asks him what he wants to do, and he realizes no one has ever asked him that before. I think no one ever took the time to ask that of Dean, but I'm not sure he would have been able to answer with anything other than what his dad wanted for him.

So Sam, I'm sure, had some unhappiness and regret about losing John and Dean while he was there, but he was also mature enough to embrace the life he was building and find happiness in it. I don't ever worry about Sam's happiness the way I do about Dean's, because I think he's always been drawn as a less damaged person, for all he was the target of a demon plot.

HOW CAN YOU NOT WORRY ABOUT SAM???

Okay, you said the way you worry about Dean. Sorry...I just...it was blinding for a second.

I think the difference is that Sam has been trying to be happy. Had been trying to be happy. Now he's just trying to make up for what he caused (not all his fault!) when he was trying to do things for himself. So he has that beating up of himself to do.

Dean never got as far as trying to do anything for himself, because I don't see him as visualising himself outside of a fucking, eating, saving, and brothering machine. He just needed his pieces in place, and then he could go forward and do his job.

Okay, you said the way you worry about Dean. Sorry...I just...it was blinding for a second.

Sorry, dear.

For me, it's right there in the pilot. Sam took off and took care of himself, really damn well. And yes, he was trying to be happy, and might have been for a long time if circumstances hadn't intervened.

Dean has only ever taken care of other people, and no one has ever taken care of him. SO I WORRY MORE.

I don't ever worry about Sam's happiness the way I do about Dean's, because I think he's always been drawn as a less damaged person, for all he was the target of a demon plot.

I think the fact that Sam was ignorant of monsters until he was 8 or so, and didn't have a stable, secure life ripped away from him the way Dean did would have a lot to do with that.

In regards to why they're still hunting, I would love to see the boys talk about that in-show.

Now I'm reminded of a Drill Sergeant I had in basic, we called her Mama Bear. We all loved her and tried to take care of her, be good and made sure she got home to her husband and kids at a timely hour.