I think to hate himself he needs to want to be something better or different. And with Ben, in that speech, maybe it was true -- he hated that he couldn't be (or didn't believe he could be) what Ben needed. And possibly Lisa, too.

But on the whole I think he just doesn't care enough. In my head, he's come to accept that he is who he is, and it's not much. In other words, DEEEEEEEAN.

Sam, on the other hand, I think was probably pretty happy at Stanford. But I think Sam is and always has been better at compartmentalization, and understanding who he is. As far back as After School Special you see it -- when the teacher asks him what he wants to do, and he realizes no one has ever asked him that before. I think no one ever took the time to ask that of Dean, but I'm not sure he would have been able to answer with anything other than what his dad wanted for him.

So Sam, I'm sure, had some unhappiness and regret about losing John and Dean while he was there, but he was also mature enough to embrace the life he was building and find happiness in it. I don't ever worry about Sam's happiness the way I do about Dean's, because I think he's always been drawn as a less damaged person, for all he was the target of a demon plot.

HOW CAN YOU NOT WORRY ABOUT SAM???

Okay, you said the way you worry about Dean. Sorry...I just...it was blinding for a second.

I think the difference is that Sam has been trying to be happy. Had been trying to be happy. Now he's just trying to make up for what he caused (not all his fault!) when he was trying to do things for himself. So he has that beating up of himself to do.

Dean never got as far as trying to do anything for himself, because I don't see him as visualising himself outside of a fucking, eating, saving, and brothering machine. He just needed his pieces in place, and then he could go forward and do his job.

Okay, you said the way you worry about Dean. Sorry...I just...it was blinding for a second.

Sorry, dear.

For me, it's right there in the pilot. Sam took off and took care of himself, really damn well. And yes, he was trying to be happy, and might have been for a long time if circumstances hadn't intervened.

Dean has only ever taken care of other people, and no one has ever taken care of him. SO I WORRY MORE.

I don't ever worry about Sam's happiness the way I do about Dean's, because I think he's always been drawn as a less damaged person, for all he was the target of a demon plot.

I think the fact that Sam was ignorant of monsters until he was 8 or so, and didn't have a stable, secure life ripped away from him the way Dean did would have a lot to do with that.

In regards to why they're still hunting, I would love to see the boys talk about that in-show.

Now I'm reminded of a Drill Sergeant I had in basic, we called her Mama Bear. We all loved her and tried to take care of her, be good and made sure she got home to her husband and kids at a timely hour.

I think the fact that Sam was ignorant of monsters until he was 8 or so, and didn't have a stable, secure life ripped away from him the way Dean did would have a lot to do with that.

I just backspaced a post where I was saying I was surprised that Dean and Sam's roles weren't reversed, since Dean had a taste of normalcy whereas Sam was born into it, and then remembered, yeah, they sheltered Sam for as long as they could until he found something hinky and pushed the issue.

Even before they retconned Brady (where are my threesomes?) into Jess, even before she got killed, that wasn't going to be properly happy. Some people can leave family, and there's not much of a dent to be seen. Sam can get out from under John's shadow, but how much can he extricate himself from Dean, even when they're apart for years? That's going to come up during the quiet times, and it's going to be a hole in an otherwise good relationship with a great woman. More about me makes sense when you meet my sister. And we ain't got shit on the Winchesters. Your loved one wants to make that sort of sense of you.

They were all they had. And then no more. I don't like S/D/J fic. Because I don't think D needs to go there, that's ick. Though I have discussed sharing men with my sister, nobody gets to fall in Sam like love.

This made more sense at the start of the post.

I'm not sure I'm following you.

In the meantime, BWAH.

Hah!

And, yeah, ita lost me at Sir!wincest.

I had gone and transcribed the pertinent scene from YCHtT and my ethernet cable had pulled out when I hit Post. Grrr.

To recap: Dean had thought Soulless Sam to be a monster, to be, in fact, like Dean. That Dean was good at cutting throats. That they spilled so much blood until the blood spilled was their own. That Dean thought he could be a father, but he was a killer. Eh, I know I got the heart of that wrong.

No, that J isn't Sir, it's Jess. Just rambling that Sam can't really be happy with Jess without Dean or the knowledge of Dean. Just that Dean need not be up in there non-platonically. Just that Dean's a part of Sam, and whatever facts about Sam you don't know pale beside not knowing the reflected chunk of Sam that is his intersection with Dean.