Has to be different.

EM different? Why? We've been given no indication other angel vessels are anything but cognitively impaired.

If anyone heals Dean I want it to be Sam, and even then, don't need it at all.

I agree with everyone that Castiel got the "oh my God yes!!" rockstar introduction, and a great quote that has been repeated to the point of almost not meaning anything anymore, but... but.... I have never quite forgiven Show for not allowing Sam to be the one to rescue Dean. I think it damaged Sam's spirit beyond repair.

So when it comes to this new season I'd like to see Sam and Dean work together to overcome their PTSDs with slightly less angelic or Lisa-induced intervention. (Which given that Dean avoids touchy-feely stuff and Show in general avoids much in the way of extended hurt/comfort, is unlikely anyway. Back to the fanfic, I guess.) Also, while I agree that Dean needs much love and support and lots of care to rebuild and piece himself back together, at the moment I'm at least equally concerned with Sam being healed. Hell, possession by Lucifer. None of it good. Preceeded by the whole starting-the-Apocalypse thing. Do you suppose once they're reunited that Dean will be willing to talk with him about it, or will Sam be the one now refusing to speak about his time down under?

I have never quite forgiven Show for not allowing Sam to be the one to rescue Dean

Give them credit for intending Sam to do it? The writer's strike fucked a lot of storylines up, not just Sam's.

I do like that being rescued by an angel and wanted by God or his minions fucked Dean up more. I like him that way.

I don't think Sam has PTSD, though. He might now, depending on how Hell went. But before, no. He was remarkably well-adjusted at the end of S5. He really pulled out of the bleak obsessive despair of S4 and the guilty depression of early S5. I think he recognised his issues, and even though Dean wouldn't talk about them with him, he processed pretty well.

Which is why he could pull Dean's head out of his ass with respect to the Michael thing.

Basically, I don't believe the power of love can heal PTSD. But if love could, the brotherly bond is the one I'd pick.

Being saved from Hell is the least of Dean's problems. He is his own nemesis.

I can't help thinking hell is going to be different for Sam, too. Dean was sent as punishment, specifically to be tortured. Sam is there with the BMOC inside. He shoved him down deep enough to grab Adam/Michael and jump into the hole, but that's no guarantee that Lucifer was knocked out for good. And I don't think hell's population is going to torture Lucifer, no matter what form he's in.

I'm in the can't speculate camp. I'm nervous enough for next season. Putting any expectations or hopes on it seems like a bad idea.

And I don't think hell's population is going to torture Lucifer, no matter what form he's in.

But that doesn't mean that being inside watching (assuming that Sam's conscious) while Lucifer drives his body is going to be a picnic. It will be like having Meg possess him, ramped up a thousandfold.

I'm not interpreting Sam as having jumped into Hell. It's the Lucifer box, and, yes, that's underground, but I don't think that it is (in) Hell in any meaningful way.

Now, still traumatic as all getout, and metaphorically hell, but more like an isolation chamber.

It will be like having Meg possess him, ramped up a thousandfold.

True, depending on what Lucifer does.

I still think the difference between Lucifer using his body to commit atrocities and Dean choosing to commit them himself are two different things. And Sam is a lot better adjusted than Dean to begin with, for relative values of well adjusted.

But yeah, no picnic either way.

The hole wasn't just a portal to hell, it was entry into the same sort of cage that Lucifer was in before the seals were broken, wasn't it? Which I thought was more hidden from everyone (demons, angels, whoever) than a place of torture, per se. Do I have that wrong?

I think you're both right, -t and Debet. I had forgotten that part.