I dunno, I'm going to go with Joss on that one. I might not agree with him on everything, but he's actively donated towards and considers his output from a feminist POV.

Just because a person calls himself a feminist doesn't make him one.

IOW, Joss isn't the feminist he thinks he is.

Either do I, but I think he did a bunch of work which effected viewpoints and spoke out about a bunch of issues and I think he deserves kudos for that.

Well, given that broadcast TV gave us the Swan a few years ago, I'm asking "Compared to what?'

I think Joss' biggest problem is he's trying too hard in several different directions (e.g. making some kind of statement on society's treatment of women, pushing the envelope of what can be done in television drama, etc.), that, while not necessarily mutually exclusive, makes for incredibly tricky combination to pull of successfully. When it fails, that way lies anvils and recriminations.

Tim doesn't seem to overthink things too much. He's after the story.

BTW, that "e.g." was correct, right? I always have problems with that vs. "i.e.".

BTW, that "e.g." was correct, right? I always have problems with that vs. "i.e.".

"e.g." means "for example", and "i.e." means "as in", so you used "e.g." correctly.

"e.g." means "for example", and "i.e." means "as in", so you used "e.g." correctly.

Thank you, Tom. Now I know that my memory trick of "i.e." =/= "in example" is the correct one.

Either do I, but I think he did a bunch of work which effected viewpoints and spoke out about a bunch of issues and I think he deserves kudos for that.

I think, Kevin, as seems to happen on some occasions, you are missing the greater point people are trying to make. I don't really think that just because Joss says, "I love women! I'm totally feminist! I'm almost a woman myself because I'm so sensitive! My sexist show is really feminist because I AM!" makes it so.

Just because he also says he's so gay doesn't actually make him gay or even kinda gay.

I actually find the self-declarative labels as an explanation for things which are offensive really annoying.

I actually find the self-declarative labels as an explanation for things which are offensive really annoying.

You mean, "It's okay, because I'm a FEMINIST! Really!" ?

'Cause I am right there with you.

Thanks, Steph.

Also, being a feminist isn't a contest. And just because someone thinks Tim does a better job writing authentic-ish female characters than Joss doesn't mean that Joss is being dissed.

I actually find the self-declarative labels as an explanation for things which are offensive really annoying.

It is pretty much the same as predicating a statement with "I'm no rascist, but...", or "I don't mean to be offensive, but...", isn't it?

Not just annoying but painfully cringe-inducing from someone who you have respected at some point.

*sigh*

For the record, I do still respect a lot of what Joss has done, even with Dollhouse, but it's getting more difficult. And I suspect that others are past the point of no return.

OTOH, where the series left off has a lot of potential, and a multitude of ways to leave the more problematic aspects behind.