Thanks, Steph.

Also, being a feminist isn't a contest. And just because someone thinks Tim does a better job writing authentic-ish female characters than Joss doesn't mean that Joss is being dissed.

I actually find the self-declarative labels as an explanation for things which are offensive really annoying.

It is pretty much the same as predicating a statement with "I'm no rascist, but...", or "I don't mean to be offensive, but...", isn't it?

Not just annoying but painfully cringe-inducing from someone who you have respected at some point.

*sigh*

For the record, I do still respect a lot of what Joss has done, even with Dollhouse, but it's getting more difficult. And I suspect that others are past the point of no return.

OTOH, where the series left off has a lot of potential, and a multitude of ways to leave the more problematic aspects behind.

for some reason, this discussion is reminding of discussions of "nice guys." To wit,

[link]

Ugh, yeah. "Nice Guys"? Not that nice.

for some reason, this discussion is reminding of discussions of "nice guys."

Yeppers. Where "for some reason" = "because it's exactly the same tired self-congratulatory vibe".

On a less imflamatory level, it's like insisting out loud how cool and hip you are. If you have to announce it...

Also, being a feminist isn't a contest.

Ding ding ding! Yes.

Or, as they say in the biz, show, don't tell.

On a less imflamatory level, it's like insisting out loud how cool and hip you are. If you have to announce it...

I am mostly cloudy, 59 °F, and I have two hips.

I'm still willing not to completely yank Joss' feminist card, but I would like to see more of that sensibility affecting this series. But maybe I'm just conflicted because I'm a feminist who is finding non-feminist Ari Gold to be the most fun I've had writing all year.(It kind of helps that his wife carries one of his balls in her handbag, metaphorically speaking, but even that is a sufficiently old-school relationship that I have twinges of embarrassment about enjoying it from time to time. I mean, she really does shop to get even with him. But their scenes are still fun to watch...is that being anti-feminist?

I think of Joss as being a self-identified feminist, who is conscious of the issues and history of sexism and yet has some grotesque blind spots that he keeps going back to.

For every waif-ish early Willow/Fred/River he's also given us complex and intriguing women like Zoe and Buffy and Faith and Cordelia and later Willow.

The whole Sexbot/Woman Without Volition thing though is such a recurring itch in his psyche that it's a problem for me: Buffybot, Girl the Trio robotocizied, Inara, sexbot in Serenity movie, Dollhouse...

I get that he is interested in how men objectify women. It's just that the constant recurrence leaves an icky stain suggesting that his interest is not purely conceptual. It feels like he's attracted to Women Who Don't Have Autonomy Particularly Over Sex (whether that's true or not, it's just feels that way now).

In Joss' world every man secretly wants a sexbot and would go and get one immediately if it were legal and possible.

Actually his view of men might be more derogatory than his view of women.