After all, what is the point of life if not to learn and grow?

To drink copiously and laugh at the failure of your enemies?

Well, that too, obviously!

Glamcookie, I just want to thank you for what you are doing here, and also recognize the energy that this takes from you.

Thanks, ND. It's something I'm super passionate about and I literally can't stay quiet. I'm okay with discomfort - it's nothing compared to what folks in vulnerable groups live with daily. Appreciate the positive feedback.

We're just a talky group. I agree that some updating the rules and customs in the FAQ can use fresher ideas since, of course, we continue to grow and society continues to change and we (even we!) have a lot to learn.

I tend to retreat from conflict but since my involvement here has been sparse over the last few years, I am rusty at some of the stuff. I think we're continuing to make progress on a lot of things and for the people who remind me that we cannot control reactions or make rules or threads for every scenario, I thank you.

Some of the most valuable conversations we have had have been the most painful.

It's been something I've been working on for quite a few years now, so I understand the passion. I try hard to recognize the amount of access and privilege I have just by being a middle aged white guy, and I've been trying to make it my goal to use that to help vulnerable groups. A couple of years ago I was able to push through a request with the company that I used to use for employee leasing that they give a more options on their paperwork for gender than just the standard binary. In the end they did it not just for us, but due to the request and prodding they changed it company wide, so it is now what is used for all of their clients nationwide. Things that can be a difficult request for someone in a vulnerable group, can sometimes be easier to push through as an ally. I figure I might as well try to use some of this for good, there certainly is no shortage of white guys using it for evil.

Does anybody want to take a crack at the new language for the FAQ/Etiquette on this?

I’m having a thought as I’ve been reading these threads for weeks (and never saw the deleted offending posts until Cindy was able to grab them from the magic machine), and that is that in my experience, people are open to learning more easily by reading discourse on a subject rather than being confronted personally by it.

I don’t know a single person who learned immediately by being yelled at or feeling cornered into change (I’m aware no one yelled at Laura or Katie B, and I think SJ was right to speak up, and am not litigating that aspect); rather the growth that usually takes place is over time, and allowed space for a person to “get it” so that it’s a choice rather than a surrender.

The reason I say this, is that at first the idea of a separate thread seemed like a poor idea, but reading back on the last several posts here between Glam and Hec? That kind of discussion can be very useful for others to read, contemplate, reflect on, and absorb. All in a way where you don’t actually have to screw up and be called on it (and thus not be in the most receiving mindset) in order to learn.

For example, if we opened up such a thread and called it “examinations on evolving” or something (that is a terrible title! But it’s the connotation I’m going for), I could totally go there and say “hey! I used to love this joke as a kid that Joan Rivers would tell and now I realize that it’s racist even though I never in a million years thought it was before. But I asked one of my Chinese friends about and she says it is. And also it’s fat phobic. Way to go, Joan Rivers, and way to go me for not realizing that on my own for like 30 years.” No one would need to be confronted, but I could relay an embarrassing little anecdote and folks could passively learn from my experience being a jackass.

I don’t think an extensive rewrite of the etiquette policies are needed. This isn’t a troll situation. And Cindy’s right; these are al friends. And we love each other and don’t want to hurt each other. And sometimes we hurt each other anyway, and need to learn that and apologize. I think that can happen, but it can’t be forced or legislated.

And I appreciate everyone who’s taken the time and been patient with the situation. It’s clear you care very much. ETA: I just realized lightbulbs is closed on the thread idea. I guess it stays in Natter thread. I just know lots of folks don’t go into the Natter threads (I do a occasionally but not often) and maybe wouldn’t read the language discussions, but that’s probably fine.

FWIW, I envisioned the thread exactly as you describe if, javachik. Not a “call out” thread, but an educational thread for all of us.

That's definitely how you presented it, Glam.

Is the consensus to add a paragraph at the beginning of Etiquette? Anyone want to volunteer to draft it?