I'm glad to hear that. Language and ideas are always changing and evolving and this is a good evolution, intended to reduce harm. It's worth the effort.

I grew up with words like "gay," "pussy," "lame," and "retard" regularly used as pejoratives and I've weeded those out of my daily language. Things evolve, as you say.

Removing "crazy" (and synonyms for it) is a little harder because (as you note) it's so deeply ingrained in a lot of idiomatic expressions.

I am wondering about the logical implications of this elision. Does it follow to remove the word "idiot" because it's insulting to people with cognitive deficits? Is it wrong to condemn Trump's narcissistic disorder since that's a distinct Personality Disorder in the DSM?

I remember reading a thoughtful piece by a cabaret singer who started to become cognizant of those older lyrics which glorified abuse and domination by men. So she stopped singing those songs. And then she culled songs which where women abased themselves for men, or couldn't live without them. Where the POV of the song seemed inherently unhealthy. She took out songs that exalted drinking or addiction or perpetuated racist stereotypes, little cliched musical cues that musicians used to denote Chinatown or the Far East. And so on until she felt backed into a corner cutting off a large chunk of songs that -on the whole - were largely inoffensive except for a line or so.

So she would up going back to her original impulse and trusting her instincts about which songs were truly toxic and not worth perpetuating.

I don't think this is a reductio ad absurdum argument. I think the case for removing "crazy" from common parlance is the same as for removing "idiot."

A qualm I have on this issue is that I've seen plenty of vulnerable populations online saying things like, "Hey, it's great that you're thinking about taking the word 'lame' out of your vocabulary, because it is offensive. However, spending all your energy on the internet arguing about that is a lot less productive than getting workplace accommodations and reinforcing the ADA."

That's not me objecting to it, or making a counter argument. I'm just voicing the moving pieces in my own head on the subject.

My other hesitations revolve around (a) the Orwellian notion that the language of inoffense is one of the chief tools of political manipulation (that is, pasting over horrible things with bland language, i.e., "relocation" for "detention camps.); and (b) I'm highly aware of the history of leftist groups imploding in a frenzy self policing. Everything from the Michigan Women's Music festival to ACT UP groups to punk collectives to (going back) the infamously vicious splits between various Communist and Socialist factions in the U.S.

Again, not making a counter argument. Just thinking out loud. I am mindful now that "crazy" is offensive to some people and I'll be mulling it over. Whether I get to the place where I don't sing along with Heart on the chorus, I don't yet know. But I do know that I don't singalong with Paul anymore when he gets to "I used to be mean to my woman / I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved." Things evolve.

Yes, terms like "idiot" should be removed:

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All of this is easy to say and hard to do as they've been so embedded in our language for so long. I expect there will be many more terms I will learn are harmful in the rest of my lifetime and I will endeavor to remove them from my lexicon. After all, what is the point of life if not to learn and grow?

After all, what is the point of life if not to learn and grow?

To drink copiously and laugh at the failure of your enemies?

Well, that too, obviously!

Glamcookie, I just want to thank you for what you are doing here, and also recognize the energy that this takes from you.

Thanks, ND. It's something I'm super passionate about and I literally can't stay quiet. I'm okay with discomfort - it's nothing compared to what folks in vulnerable groups live with daily. Appreciate the positive feedback.

We're just a talky group. I agree that some updating the rules and customs in the FAQ can use fresher ideas since, of course, we continue to grow and society continues to change and we (even we!) have a lot to learn.

I tend to retreat from conflict but since my involvement here has been sparse over the last few years, I am rusty at some of the stuff. I think we're continuing to make progress on a lot of things and for the people who remind me that we cannot control reactions or make rules or threads for every scenario, I thank you.

Some of the most valuable conversations we have had have been the most painful.

It's been something I've been working on for quite a few years now, so I understand the passion. I try hard to recognize the amount of access and privilege I have just by being a middle aged white guy, and I've been trying to make it my goal to use that to help vulnerable groups. A couple of years ago I was able to push through a request with the company that I used to use for employee leasing that they give a more options on their paperwork for gender than just the standard binary. In the end they did it not just for us, but due to the request and prodding they changed it company wide, so it is now what is used for all of their clients nationwide. Things that can be a difficult request for someone in a vulnerable group, can sometimes be easier to push through as an ally. I figure I might as well try to use some of this for good, there certainly is no shortage of white guys using it for evil.

Does anybody want to take a crack at the new language for the FAQ/Etiquette on this?

I’m having a thought as I’ve been reading these threads for weeks (and never saw the deleted offending posts until Cindy was able to grab them from the magic machine), and that is that in my experience, people are open to learning more easily by reading discourse on a subject rather than being confronted personally by it.

I don’t know a single person who learned immediately by being yelled at or feeling cornered into change (I’m aware no one yelled at Laura or Katie B, and I think SJ was right to speak up, and am not litigating that aspect); rather the growth that usually takes place is over time, and allowed space for a person to “get it” so that it’s a choice rather than a surrender.

The reason I say this, is that at first the idea of a separate thread seemed like a poor idea, but reading back on the last several posts here between Glam and Hec? That kind of discussion can be very useful for others to read, contemplate, reflect on, and absorb. All in a way where you don’t actually have to screw up and be called on it (and thus not be in the most receiving mindset) in order to learn.

For example, if we opened up such a thread and called it “examinations on evolving” or something (that is a terrible title! But it’s the connotation I’m going for), I could totally go there and say “hey! I used to love this joke as a kid that Joan Rivers would tell and now I realize that it’s racist even though I never in a million years thought it was before. But I asked one of my Chinese friends about and she says it is. And also it’s fat phobic. Way to go, Joan Rivers, and way to go me for not realizing that on my own for like 30 years.” No one would need to be confronted, but I could relay an embarrassing little anecdote and folks could passively learn from my experience being a jackass.

I don’t think an extensive rewrite of the etiquette policies are needed. This isn’t a troll situation. And Cindy’s right; these are al friends. And we love each other and don’t want to hurt each other. And sometimes we hurt each other anyway, and need to learn that and apologize. I think that can happen, but it can’t be forced or legislated.

And I appreciate everyone who’s taken the time and been patient with the situation. It’s clear you care very much. ETA: I just realized lightbulbs is closed on the thread idea. I guess it stays in Natter thread. I just know lots of folks don’t go into the Natter threads (I do a occasionally but not often) and maybe wouldn’t read the language discussions, but that’s probably fine.