I kinda feel like that's the beauty of it, that there isn't a distinctive point. That it was always blurry, the line, and that while it's clear we're over it at this point, that probably neither we as viewers, nor he as a character ever saw it, really. I kinda like that we got dragged along for the ride, that we were asked to start out liking him, and if we can't now, that we don't know when it happened.

Which feels true to life, for me. That sometimes you just don't know it until way after you've crossed it.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

But there were also lines that he knew and we knew he was crossing, all along and he just kept crossing them. I mean, killing Jane certainly seemed like a moral Rubicon.

Can he go back now? Be redeemed? I guess it's possible but it would be enormously difficult and, well, first he'd have to want to.

Would Jesse's GF dying be the earliest clear manipulative/abusive thing he did to him?

I think he might not have gotten into crime without the cancer, but I think he'd have morphed into a lighter, more law-abiding massive asshole in the face of some smaller drama--maybe if his wife had cheated on him for some other reason than the chain that put her where she reached (although I am pretty sure we'd see a more sympathetic version of her without Walt's crime revelation--she wasn't perfect, but she wouldn't be this), he'd have been scary and dangerous in his reaction--and possibly worse, he'd be paying attention to her, instead of basically neglecting her like he has been this whole time--I don't think you want that unbalance pointed in your direction.

Wait--he didn't kill Jane, did he? I mean, he's not legally liable for her death, right? Without good samaritan laws in place, he's just (just) a monster.

To me, the line was crossed when his cancer was cured but he didn't stop. S3 was the weakest in my opinion and I forget some of the details of that time. But he could have left after Holly was born and chose not to.

Jane was aspirating and he left her. Totally not legally responsible. (morally is a different story)

But I think that he let her die. He didn't kill her.

I haven't watched the whole thing. I missed a lot of the early stuff because it was too close to home for me.

But I think he's redeemable, but I don't think he will be. I don't think he wants to be. I don't think he could be happy redeemed.

I think the cancer cut loose some fundamental filters that most people operate under. Which could have been a good thing. But I think once he'd discarded that, he has slowly progressed to this point where he's living as he chooses, and I can't see him cleaning up and being content, even if it was possible.

ita, not sure if that was to me but I am agreeing with you.

I don't want to see him redeemed. Jesse maybe. Or yes, I suppose. I normally love a redemption story, but it has to feel earned.

I'd be curious to map out Walt 's contact with death and see how he has escalated to killing Mike. He started out killing drug dealers in self defense. It seems to me that he has become slowly desensitized to it.

I'm only disagreeing with -t's use of the word "kill".

I think there's a point where the killing became "proactive" self defence, and that was another quantum leap for him. When it's not people trying to kill you right now or currently executing a contract on you...I think the law views you differently at this point too, right?