And don't you ever stand for that sort of thing. Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back! ... You got the right same as anyone to live and try to kill people.

Mal ,'Our Mrs. Reynolds'


Boxed Set, Vol. IV: It's always suicide-mission this, save-the-planet that.  

A topic for the discussion of Farscape, Smallville, and Due South. Beware possible invasions of Stargate, Highlander, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect Adult Content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.

Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.

Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.

This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.


Liese S. - Oct 05, 2007 7:46:12 am PDT #7179 of 10001
"Faded like the lilac, he thought."

On the first round through this, I didn't like this episode much, but it's better to me in context. I definitely agree with the "these people are too stupid to live" sentiment, but I can see the background for it.

I can definitely see how Ianto would not be able to see that Lisa was gone, that the Cyberwoman posed an irredeemable threat. Knowing what we did from the past, the sight of her and the rig was horrifying. But to Ianto, no matter what else happened, he just saw Lisa. He had drug himself through horrors to get her out of there in the first place; he was the reason she was not completely upgraded. So for him, there was no way to know how far gone she was until, unfortunately, she was free and killing people. And then there was plenty of time for denial.

His grief was so palpable. Of course, narratively I wish he'd been able to kill her. But I think it's telling for his character, his relationship with the team, his process, that in the end he was unable to. He would risk the whole universe, over and over again, for her, no matter how small the hope was. And he knew, at the end. He knew, but he just couldn't make himself do it. I think an American show might have had him shoot.

Now, about the sexualization of Lisa. Oddly, it didn't ping me as badly as some other depictions do. I think it was because her sexualization was a plot point. It figured into the way the characters interacted with her, into their expectations. I cringed when the scientist groped her, too, but I think I was intended to cringe. Her sexualization wasn't just blatant for viewer titillation, I thought, although probably that was there too. It was intended to have consequences, to be discussed, to be dealt with.

It was acknowledged, you know? Like, okay, we fear and hate the Cybermen, who are faceless automatons and killers. But what if it were flesh and blood and mechanical and impersonal, all at once? Do we hate the Cybermen because they are a threat to us, or do we hate them because we cannot touch their flesh, feel the beat of their heart, experience them as entities, sexual and otherwise?

To me, that's an important question that needed to be dealt with. Could we have done it without the completely OTT costume? Probably. And could we have an interesting conversation on why it had to be a woman to be a humanizing element for the Cybermen, and the state of gender and human identity? Probably. But I feel like it was part of a conversation, not just an abusive oversight, as I often feel about women's portrayals in media.


Fred Pete - Oct 05, 2007 7:56:19 am PDT #7180 of 10001
Ann, that's a ferret.

Something I love about this episode -- Ianto is *so* upset. Sobbing, cursing, completely off-his-rocker upset.

But I think it's telling for his character, his relationship with the team, his process, that in the end he was unable to.

I suspect that he isn't long for the team. Which would mean losing two of the original five within the first season.

On the other hand, maybe he'll be replaced by someone that I can tell apart from Owen.


sumi - Oct 05, 2007 7:57:24 am PDT #7181 of 10001
Art Crawl!!!

You can't tell Ianto from Owen?


Dana - Oct 05, 2007 7:57:35 am PDT #7182 of 10001
I'm terrifically busy with my ennui.

t loves Liese

He would risk the whole universe, over and over again, for her, no matter how small the hope was.

That's really interesting, given (serious spoilers for later episodes) what Owen does to get Diane back, and what Gwen does when Rhys is killed.


Fred Pete - Oct 05, 2007 7:58:09 am PDT #7183 of 10001
Ann, that's a ferret.

No, I can't -- they look too much alike to me. What's the secret?


sumi - Oct 05, 2007 7:59:46 am PDT #7184 of 10001
Art Crawl!!!

Well, to me they look completely different from each other. Owen has this very flat face with a large frog-like mouth and Ianto has a much more rounded face with a round baby-like forehead and a small mouth.


Liese S. - Oct 05, 2007 8:08:44 am PDT #7185 of 10001
"Faded like the lilac, he thought."

Definitely, Dana. You feel the censure coming from everyone (spoily, spoily, beware) and yet, put in the same position, they would do the same damn thing, and I bet they know it.

Ianto is somehow clearer to me. His grief and anger and priorities are all transparent, unabashed. There's this little chin-jut-out thing he does that conveys a sentiment not unlike Love's Bitch.


Dana - Oct 05, 2007 8:12:26 am PDT #7186 of 10001
I'm terrifically busy with my ennui.

One of my favorite moments when rewatching the finale was (still big spoilers) when they were all facing off against Jack, and Jack reminded them of all the things they'd done to each other, including everyone shooting Lisa, Ianto shooting Owen, Gwen sleeping with Owen, and everyone ignoring Tosh. Serious emotional porn.


Ginger - Oct 05, 2007 8:17:27 am PDT #7187 of 10001
"It didn't taste good. It tasted soooo horrible. It tasted like....a vodka martini." - Matilda

Owen has this very flat face with a large frog-like mouth

That mouth is freaky looking. He could play Gollum without makeup.


§ ita § - Oct 05, 2007 8:22:05 am PDT #7188 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Ianto's good looking. Owen, so not.