A ban from a community of Buffy/Angel fans does not have the same mental weight as a ban from say, the municipal court that can throw your meatspace butt in a jail cell.

But it would, in my mind, seem to indicate that he doesn't really respect us or care about what we think. And that's... not the kind of person you want to have around? I mean, his witty banter in the Movies thread or his clever analysis of the current Buffy season notwithstanding-- he seemed to respect us on a (as I saw it) very basic level. And I don't know why he stuck around after that.

I can only think of religious examples to explain what I mean. (OK, OK, we supposedly are a cult, aren't we?)

For example, I'm not Catholic. I wouldn't really blink if the Pope tapped my shoulder and mentioned I was excommunicated. (OK. I'd blink. Then I'd ask for his autograph, and see if I could sell it on eBay.) But if I were Catholic, or really interested in becoming Catholic, I think I'd care!

Similarly, and in a less probable but slightly more relevant example, if a devotee of the Grand Stale Preztel Temple told me I was blasphemous in their eyes since I was wearing a purple skirt on a Thursday, and I was going to their hell unless I followed these twenty steps to save my soul, I'd brush that aside and keep walking. It's some weird social order trying to impose their arbitrary, insane rules upon me, right? I don't need to care; I don't want anything from them. If I get thrown out of a society I have no interest in... that's pretty pointless isn't it? I never wanted in in the first place.

But if I took a brochure from that GSPT devotee? And started taking Sunday night classes at the Temple? And got really interested in their organization? And wanted to join, and wear the spiky orange headdress of an initiate?

If I kept wearing that damn skirt on Thursdays, I really can't with any reason expect to be able to keep acting cute and surprised when they withhold the headdress from me.

I don't have the kind of responsibility to the Buffistas as I do to a court of law. It's just a social order, the place where I like to belong. But that means they have the right to kick my ass out-- can't throw me into jail, but they can exact punishment within their limited range, in their self-limited terms. IE, the headdress; the Catholic Hell. IE, Buffista posting privileges .

John, Rebecca and anyone who felt the need to discuss m/s/a,

I'm sorry that my asking for it to stop made you feel badly. I was asking for my own selfish sake, because of the history Allyson gave in:

Allyson "Bureaucracy 1: Like Kafka, Only Funnier" Mar 18, 2003 11:54:38 pm EST

I was one of the people in the beginning, who supported that Geo. I thought he was just a slow learner and would catch on eventually. By the end, I was manually installing the rail we needed to run him out of town. He was completely devisive, and Allyson underplayed how bad it got.

The first time mieskie posted, I thought he was Geo. But then his age, location and marital status were all different (not that those things can't be faked), and his maturity level, spelling and grammar were better (not as easy to fake).

The first time he came back as Schmoker, his very first post (in this thread) - I "knew" he was mieskie, because when I'd thought mieskie was Geo, I'd (unintentionally) memorized his style, his phrasing, his opinions, his "voice", while trying to decide if it was Geo in disguise. I take no pride in the fact that I spent so much time thinking about him.

I didn't like my reaction to his antics. I was way too into whether or not m=s. I was morally outraged to a ridiculous degree that "people wouldn't see the truth" and Do Something. It took a gut check (thanks to bitterchick) at the time to even make me consider letting it go and letting the chips fall were they may.

I was angry that John left over it (not at John - at the internet gods), because I didn't want to lose one of our Class Protectors to someone like that again. I thought m/s/a was completely horrid to John here, over the emails. I was doing the dance of "this is so unfair" in my head. All. Day.

Then m/s/a started playing by the rules. And I realized since we never will know who is who, not really, it didn't matter to me. I could just take people by face value, or even better, on a post by post, or topic by topic basis.

I just wanted to stay in that place. And I wanted you all to get to that place, in my time, because dammit - everyone should do what I want, when I want, how I say, wearing the clothes I've picked out for them, sitting up straight and eating their vegetables. That's why I asked that we drop it. But I didn't have the right to ask. I should have, instead, removed myself from the conversation.

Talk all you need to. I'm very sorry contributing members of this community were upset by someone who didn't hold this great community in the regard it deserves, immediately. I still think this is exactly like The Yoko Factor. I've just already memorized my lines in the make-up scene in Primeval and have to wait for it.

I will go back to "that place", will eat chocolate and model myself after Lloyd Dobler.

So you're saying, if DXMachina didn't exist, we would have to invent him?

It just means I have to spend more time with Ed at the F2F. First beer's on me.

Woo hoo! I drink, therefore I am.

What Cindy Said.

Also, I am weirded out that Burrell was right about the yes votes. And a little irritated that we're counting "no preferance". But I am leting it go.

I too, was sure Schmoker was meiske and remained sure about it even as Anathema. But there was this point where I couldn't sustain it any more. I just thought, after he changed to Anathema that I would let it go and just let him be a new person. I never really talked much to him, because a) I was embroiled in democracy and b) I didn't like that I knew he was meiskie.

But I really understand John's righteous anger. It sucks to be the one who is following the rules. I have a very long story involving a theatre that a friend and I started (and ran for about 5 years), where he never followed any rules and everyone loved hime, meanwhile I was following all the rules plus cleaning up messes, and everyone thought I was a right bitch, but I won't tell that story because it is really long and not posting board related. But I got to this point that everytime he got caught in a lie I wanted to jump up and down saying"Don't you see! He's a liar!!!!" Eventually I left that theatre, that I built with my money and time and expertise. That I let him take the credit for directing all of his shows alone when I was always there to back him up, coach his actors and fix things. I left. And that sucked. So John-- I completely and totally understand how you are feeling, but I can't feel like that her, because I can't feel like that again

X-post form Natter.

I was just googling my name. Just my first and last name get eight hits, all of which are me.

The distressing part of that were that the first two hits were messages from our Buffistas Yahoo! Mailing list.

That's very squicksome for me. Can we do anything to the group to make it still accessible to all Buffista who want to access it, but prevent it from being googlable?

John, I'm not going to have an opinion on the m/S/A thing - I genuinely don't give a fuck. he/she/it pissed me off, but there are lots of buffistas that do that - I'm intolerant. I wanted to say, though, that I've missed you, and your absurd Mac-geekery, and your generally sunny attitude, and your Morecombe and Wise routines with Mandible Girl, and it's good to have you back around.

You know what, if meiskie had waited out his two months and then come back here and behaved the way he did when used the name Schmoker, I probably would have been more receptive to him and given him a second chance.

If meiskie had waited the two months, and then come back as Schmoker and concealed the connection I'd have been all right with it, if it would have eventually come out.

I have a request. People can ignore it if they want. It's not an order. Just a request.

The "if he had done such & such differently" speculations are not helpful. Dwelling on how much we liked him or didn't like him and whether or not we're offended and how much and for what reasons and in which incarnations is not helpful. It's past. It's done. He's gone. We're not. Let's move on.

If people want to pause in our voting about how to vote procedings and talk about procedures for dealing with trolls instead, I think that's about the only productive turn this conversation could take. Otherwise, we're just beating the same dead horse that's been rotting in the middle of the room for the past two and a half months.

I agree with Jess. Let's make this productive, if we can. That's the bureaucracy side of what happened, and less of the personal. What could we do differently in a similar situation? How could things be handled better?

This is what I'd like to know from the people who are upset -- not upset with m/S/A, but upset with how it went down, once it all started.

If this teeny not-quite-a-troll can cause this much damage, what happens if a real troll shows up? Can we be prepared? Is there anything we can do without damaging the community?