I’ve been biting my virtual tongue on the “clique” issue for a while now.

I went back and reviewed the recent Schmoker controversy, and have come to the conclusion that, despite the fine rhetoric and politically correct talk, this board is just like any other.

Schmoker, in my opinion, did nothing “offensive”. His defense of his position was no more strenuous, out of bounds or persistent than a number of similar discussions by “veteran” Buffistas. And it truly disturbs me that he and others have not only felt forced to withdraw or de-lurk, but that the ire continued after their stated withdrawal and even devolved into accusations of deception and troll-hood.

I’ve seen it denied here, but the naked truth is that this community does have a distinct tendency to tell newbies “shut up and wait” in no uncertain terms. Some people have come forth and stated their preference for such an unwritten policy and patted themselves on the back for their honesty and straightforwardness. And gotten accolades in turn.

Well, that’s crap. It says “We can be rude but you can’t. We can be completely inconsiderate jerks, and you can’t say ‘boo’ about it because we’ve been here longer.” Like that’s some sort of badge of honor. To spin it another way it says “We can spend more time here because we don’t have lives or have lenient and boring jobs so we win”.

I did not spend all that much time lurking when first I was pointed to the Buffistas. I waited a couple days and jumped in. And though I don’t remember specifically what I posted, it wasn’t all happy-happy “Golly you all are swell, I wanna be just like you when I grow up, please accept me”. I’m fairly certain it was brash and brazen and probably offensive. I’ve even earned a reputation on this board for precisely that, with a sort of cackling “hee hee get Miracleman, he’ll snark so and so for us” on occasion. I have felt, in the past, a full and committed part of this community and I find that I no longer feel that way, or want to feel that way because of our repeated “shut the hell up newbie” behavior.

We’ve all stepped over the line on occasion. We’ve all been either pissy, or thought we were being funny and said something that pissed somebody else off. And, usually, a simple “Dude, what was that?” will get us to say “sorry”. But not always; there have, as I earlier mentioned, been numerous cases of a “Dude” response triggering a “Hey, wait, I’m defending my position ad nauseam” conversation that clogged the thread and made everyone nuts and not once has someone said “Maybe you should just shut up until you learn the rules”. Why? Because the posters involved have been here a while. They’re “old school” and that, evidently, gives them carte blanche to stomp the crap out of a thread with their personal issues until their fingers fall off. They weren’t told “learn the rules” and they really should have been told that or at least reminded that they should know better.

I don’t buy the “earn your place” position at all. I don’t know how many people on this board I want to smack the hell out of on a daily basis and they’re relatively new. But someone took a shine to them, or they got away with it once or twice and now they can ramble idiotically about whatever moronic subject floats their particular boat that day and there isn’t a giant brouhaha here in Bureaucracy about what the hell we should do about it. And there sure as hell aren’t accusations of trollish behavior or misrepresentation of themselves.

The Buffistas are a clique and a damnably snooty one. Some of you like it that way, some of you feel that’s just dandy. But I don’t. I think we should give new people a chance and wait for them to cross a real line before we jump all over them and make them feel unwelcome and unworthy. Schmoker had issues with our ambiguous “community standards” and that has brought that issue into specific relief. The conclusion: Our community standards are false, hypocritical and based on tenure. But that tenure is ill defined; some people can waltz in and immediately “earn” their place despite being just as annoying or grating as any newbie you can name. Why?

If we could define that, maybe a case could be made for “you belong; you don’t you rule-violator, you”. But currently there’s an unfair system of vets claiming annoyance and everyone jumping on the band-wagon so they can be in the cool kids corner.

It’s disappointing and depressing.

I don't know if I can explain it well enough for you, MM (or anyone). I still liken it to meatspace. I just don't think that -- in general -- someone can enter a group of strangers and immediately be at ease with everyone and familiar with all the already-established relationships and levels of familiarity.

Once in a while, it does happen. Someone enters a group of strangers and is instantly at ease. And that's great when that happens.

Is it personality? Probably part of it. I also think a large part of it is learning the community.

Perhaps that's elitist. But then, there's a reason why I'm here and not at another Buffy board. I *fit*here. The Buffistas fit *me*. And that is, in a way, exclusive.

I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I should cop to being an elitist pig and be done with it. It's still how I feel.

OK, can we step back a minute here?

What is it that this discussion is trying to determine, anyway?

We're not deciding whether any particular poster is in violation of community standards. We've had the Community Standards discussion ad nauseum multiple times over the past six months. Some people feel the standards are fairly applied. Others think they are not. Everyone's mileage is going to vary on something like this.

I think everyone agrees that the community as a whole would prefer most discussions be conducted with honesty and respect for the other parties, and that personal insults be kept off the board (as much as possible).

Communities are made up of human beings -- frail, fallible critters that we are. Every one of us has a breaking point, everyone sees things through their own filters, and everyone has different expectations.

A perfectly-worded Community Standards statement is neither achievable nor likely to resolve these issues and conflicts.

The best we can do is give our fellow posters the benefit of the doubt, bite our tongues when we react in anger, and try to be as civil and courteous as possible, understanding the limits of the medium we're working in.

IJS. YBMV.

MM, frankly, I don't remember how you came into the Buffistas, and I really don't care. We didn't have to care then. We *couldn't* afford to care, since we were not in a position to do a damned thing about it.

And, really, every time you walk into a group of people you don't know and act like you do and everything works out just fine? You were fricking lucky.

And you know what? I must have missed the part where anyone said anything official should be done schmokerwise if he isn't mieskie.

Also, as someone who most recently (and unofficially) mentioned to Rob and RL that I thought their posting was out of line ... I resemble the remark that anyone can get away with anything if they've just been here long enough. If people use a tone you feel they should be called on the carpet for, why didn't you?

And it's important to understand I didn't make my mentions to Rob or RL because I dislike either of them, or that I thought they should change their mind on the topic at hand, or that they hadn't been here as long as I have and are all nouveaux Buffistas.

It's because I thought they were being overly rude. I called it when I saw it cross *my* comfort line.

Now, if either of them were really new, I can see how it might want to make them pick up their bags and leave. Would you have called me unfair and cliquish then?

You know where the line is, MM. If you haven't made admins or the community aware of when you thought it was being crossed sufficiently, then what's the problem? You can't decide when other people's lines have been crossed. Only yours.

I'm glad you've gotten past your part in the apparent hypocrisy, but please be careful where you aim that gun.

Sure, I get driven bugfuck by stuff here. Still human. The bits where it's just life, or just my issues? I don't post a damned thing about. Because it's about more than just the boring way I want everything.

One man's community is another man's clique. C'est la vie, I suppose.

What is it that this discussion is trying to determine, anyway?

Nothing, as far as I can, other than How Do People Feel Today. Which is fine, and actually, I'd say it's a hallmark of the Buffistas -- overanalyzing every damn thing. Like I said, that's fine.

I've been holding off on posting myself, even though Cindy and I may have started it. However, I think what is happening now is everyone is taking the opportunity of talking about "newbies" to say things about the board as a whole-- newbies and oldbies.

Anyway, I am with Dana. I am finding this conflict upsetting. I personally am finding our conflict with each other more upsetting than any conflict we had with meiskie or schmoker. I am not saying that these things shouldn't be said, because obviously people are feeling them. I'm just saying that it is making me tense and upset and want to cry.

ita, I wasn't aiming a "gun" at any one person in particular.

And if I implied that this was an "official" condemnation of a new person for being new, that wasn't what I meant either.

What I'm commenting on is the tendency of the community to take issue with a new person's actions that they let slide for somebody who's been here a while. It's as though, suddenly, people went "Hey, we can do something about people we don't like" but they constrain themselves to acting en masse and viciously only against those who have come in recently. And they often do so in a manner that equals or exceeds the original rudeness they are purportedly responding to.

I'm not saying it's your "job" to police against that, I'm not saying it's anyone's job. But this "Lord of The Flies" mentality is a disturbing trend I've noticed in this group recently.

And, for the record, I commend you, ita, in particular for reminding Rob and RL to tone down their posts.

It's the nature of any group of people that agreement will not be universal. I do hope there are no group hugs in the offing once we've thrashed everything out, but I do think that once people say things they've been biting their tongues on, one way or another, that things will be stronger. And now I'm desperately afraid I'm sounding like an Oprah episode. Bleh.

And it's OK to be upset, Sophia. Seeing family members getting loud at each other always makes me a bit nauseous too.

It's as though, suddenly, people went "Hey, we can do something about people we don't like" but they constrain themselves to acting en masse and viciously only against those who have come in recently. And they often do so in a manner that equals or exceeds the original rudeness they are purportedly responding to.

I have not seen this. Certainly not "en masse." I have seen a few rude posts, made by a few people, and that's it. Now granted, I do skip and skim through the show threads.

And just to be really dorky about everything: I'm glad that people are disagreeing here, and that the occasional newer person has posted in this thread. I think we can work it out without people feeling they have to shut up and go away, if they don't agree with whatever they are percieving as the current groupthink.

the tendency of the community to take issue with a new person's actions that they let slide for somebody who's been here a while.

Show me a community that doesn't do that. Think about the difference between the way you treat Joe's new girlfriend at the party and the way you treat his wife of many years. Think about the amount of slack you give an old friend, as opposed to the amount of slack you give a stranger.

We just had a very bad experience. This has made us nervous and tetchy and looking over our shoulders for trouble. I think the best thing we can do is stop picking at the scab forawhile.