Mal: Go on. Get in there. Give your brother a thrashing for messing up your plan. River: He takes so much looking after.

'Objects In Space'


All Ogle, No Cash -- It's Not Just Annoying, It's Un-American

Discussion of episodes currently airing in Un-American locations (anything that's aired in Australia is fair game), as well as anything else the Un-Americans feel like talking about or we feel like asking them. Please use the show discussion threads for any current-season discussion.

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JZ - Sep 18, 2002 5:26:04 pm PDT #62 of 9843
See? I gave everybody here an opportunity to tell me what a bad person I am and nobody did, because I fuckin' rule.

And again, THS and "Mere Christianity" are both earlier works. And there's so much that I find good and nourishing in MC that I generally just shrug off that (yes, offensive) section, or go back and re-read Dorothy Sayers's "Unpopular Opinions" as a tonic.


Betsy HP - Sep 18, 2002 5:26:48 pm PDT #63 of 9843
If I only had a brain...

Hey, I overlook Dorothy Sayers's raging class issues and Semitic stereotyping. Let us overlook together.


JZ - Sep 18, 2002 5:26:50 pm PDT #64 of 9843
See? I gave everybody here an opportunity to tell me what a bad person I am and nobody did, because I fuckin' rule.

Nah, I'm not saying he's not morally accountable for them, but I am saying that they don't represent the be-all and end-all of his views of women, set in stone, now and forever amen. They demonstrably don't.


Susan W. - Sep 18, 2002 5:29:13 pm PDT #65 of 9843
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

Agreed that he's morally accountable for his views, but I consider it to his credit that his views improved with time and experience rather than stagnating or worsening.


Betsy HP - Sep 18, 2002 5:33:07 pm PDT #66 of 9843
If I only had a brain...

Everybody gets points for growing wiser.

It's just that, for me, there's a difference between saying "Come on, that's juvenilia, he didn't write his first great novel until he was thirty" and saying "Well, he did say this incredibly stupid and narrow-minded thing, but he wised up about a year before he died."

Although I adore Yeats, who was a complete -stick-a-banana-up-your-nose-and-claim-you're-an-elephant loony, and who never copped to it until he wrote The Circus Animals' Desertion.


JZ - Sep 18, 2002 5:48:10 pm PDT #67 of 9843
See? I gave everybody here an opportunity to tell me what a bad person I am and nobody did, because I fuckin' rule.

Not about a year before he died, but progressively, from the time he met the woman who would eventually become his wife (early 50s, if memory serves). He never dealt completely honestly with his change in perspective -- just completely stopped writing about The Woman Problem altogether in his theology/lit/life in general essays. My personal hope is that he realized he'd been an ass but lacked the courage to publicly recant, but there's no way to prove that.

He does get points from me, though, for having spent the last decade plus of his life refraining from the bloviating that has gotten him in trouble here, all the while creating female characters in his fiction who were progressively more rich, sympathetic, complicated and fully human.


Susan W. - Sep 18, 2002 5:50:17 pm PDT #68 of 9843
Good Trouble and Righteous Fights

Now that I think about it, just about every author I adore from that generation--Lewis, Sayers, Tolkien, etc.--has at least one issue and/or authorial tic that makes me roll my eyes when I encounter it. I guess it's an individual comfort zone thing. F'rinstance, I get more annoyed with Tolkien than Lewis over gender issues, because the women and girls in the Narnia stories are a heck of a lot more well-rounded and important to the story than the ones of Middle-Earth. Not that that's stopping me from awaiting The Two Towers film with bated breath; it just annoys me a little.


Theodosia - Sep 18, 2002 6:20:03 pm PDT #69 of 9843
'we all walk this earth feeling we are frauds. The trick is to be grateful and hope the caper doesn't end any time soon"

Truly, the past is a different country.


Trudy Booth - Sep 18, 2002 11:04:51 pm PDT #70 of 9843
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart

I consider it to his credit that his views improved with time and experience rather than stagnating or worsening.

Yep, that is the interesting thing about Lewis. Whenever he ticks me off I remind myself he was a conservative who grew broader rather than a liberal who shrivled as he aged.


Typo Boy - Sep 19, 2002 12:33:05 am PDT #71 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Let's give CSL credit - but also remember that he can't completely blame his time. After all H.G. Wells lived in the same period and managed to be a feminist, a humanist, for labor against capital and an all around good guy.

And Oscar Wilde, and maybe George Bernard Shaw (although managing to speak favorably of Stalin and Hitler at the same time loses him some points).