Saffron: You just had a better hand of cards this time. Mal: It ain't a hand of cards. It's called a life.

'Trash'


All Ogle, No Cash -- It's Not Just Annoying, It's Un-American

Discussion of episodes currently airing in Un-American locations (anything that's aired in Australia is fair game), as well as anything else the Un-Americans feel like talking about or we feel like asking them. Please use the show discussion threads for any current-season discussion.

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moonlit - Apr 13, 2003 3:11:51 pm PDT #3347 of 9843
"When the world's run by fools it's the duty of intelligence to disobey." Martin Firrell

Technology has brought us all sorts of transport, all sorts of power sources, more advanced ways of seeing and hearing, computers, better teeth, genetic knowledge, and an enlarged collective memory, but none of these profound changes have altered the human will, human restlessness, the human desire for freedom or for conformity. So it can be said that many of the triumphs of science and technology were really only skin-deep (Stranglers anyone). IOW it is far easier in an era of mass production in the countryside and city, to satisfy the stomach than the mind, easier to tame diseases than to tame human behaviour.

In 1910 all the western physicists and chemists put together amounted to around 10,000 people. By the late 1980s the number of scientists, physicists, chemists and engineers etc. engaged in research and experimental development in the world was estimated at about 5 million. Wars proved the necessity of science and technology - bomb=proof.

After the moral issues raised by the war/bomb stuff abated we had a generation of science and technology that remained ideologically quiescent, enjoying the intellectual triumphs and the vastly expanded resources available. In the 1970's the US government funded 2/3 of the basic research costs in that country, which then ran at around 5 billion a year, and employed about 1 million scientists and engineers. The munificent patronage of governments and the military/industrial complex encouraged much scientific and tech research not to think too hard about the wider implications.

But from the 1970's environmental and social effects began to make it glaringly obvious that science, ie. the pursuit of truth, could not be separated from its conditions and consequences, and must be constrained and directed. At about the same time the global economic boom ended and as fuel and resources became more expensive, budgetary constraints had to also be applied. Thus ‘pure’ research (undefinite priorities and expensive) and ‘applied’ research (employed the most in the advance of knowledge) gave way to the need to achieve certain practical results. Researchers pursued what was socially useful or economically profitable, what was funded.

Two newspaper quotes to sum up the state of play by the 1990’s …

About their system,

Although the earthly ideal of Socialism-Communism has collapsed, the problems it purported to solve remain: the brazen use of social advantage and the inordinate power of money, which often direct the very course of events.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn in the New York Times (Nov 28 1993)

And about our system,

It remains, however, an imperfect force … About two thirds of the world’s population have gained little or no substantial advantage from rapid economic growth. In the developed world, the lowest quartile of income earners have witnessed trickle-up rather than trickle-down.
Editorial Financial Times (Dec 24 1993)

During the last few decades there have been some suggestions as to things that could be done to try to get a handle on all of this. One example is the Tobin Tax,

The tax could fund a huge increase in anti-poverty programmes. Aid to poor countries stands at around $55 billion per annum and it is falling. Basic education and health care, food security, water and sanitation could all be funded from the Tobin tax. It has been estimated that a tax of 0.1%, even after its calming effect, could raise between $50 and $300 billion a year. Even at the low end this would match existing levels of official aid.

So, almost 40 years later if I asked my father why there are still so many children/people dying of starvation and disease in so many other parts of the world, I think he would have to say that we now have the knowledge/expertise/technology/distribution/money to get the job done but we have don’t have the will. Sad really.


Typo Boy - Apr 13, 2003 3:16:59 pm PDT #3348 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Ah - I'm still with Tracey Chapman:

Heaven is a place on earth.

and with Phillip Pullman that we need to build "the Republic of Heaven".

We don't need utopias - just a will to make things better.

We've had the technology for a long time. What we need is the will, and the ability to defeat the rich and powerful of all sorts (which included the Marxist governments back when there were such) . I don't want to argue against your dream; if self sufficiency are what you want more power to you. But it does not look to me like we have to give up computers and television and the auto. The poor are not poor because some middle class westerners have a decent life; they are poor because of various oppressions; there really is enough for everyone to have pretty close to a middle class western life style if they wish - or such parts of it as they choose to have. It really is the politics and economics that are wrong - not the technology.

I was born in Dec of 59 - so I speak with infinite wisdom of one who is at least a month your elder...


moonlit - Apr 13, 2003 3:22:30 pm PDT #3349 of 9843
"When the world's run by fools it's the duty of intelligence to disobey." Martin Firrell

I bow to your wisdom, oh 'one of more advanced years than I'.


Typo Boy - Apr 13, 2003 3:22:41 pm PDT #3350 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

We xposted. But I don't really think it is the fault of science; science provides the tools. The various technologists can figure you out ways to grow food, heat houses, dispose of your shit so it does not cause diseases, cure a lot of disease we do get, transport people to various locations. But no science can make people love one another; it seems a bit unfair to blame science for that. That, it seems to me, is up to us.


Zoe Ann - Apr 13, 2003 3:23:37 pm PDT #3351 of 9843
Mathair & Athair beo.

I like science, science can be fun, but culturally I still tend to think in metaphors.


Madrigal Costello - Apr 13, 2003 3:23:57 pm PDT #3352 of 9843
It's a remora, dimwit.

Well, when a person isn't starving or suffering leprosy, it is a lot easier to love one's neighbor and not just think of raiding their village, stealing their stuff and plundering their nubiles.


Typo Boy - Apr 13, 2003 3:29:27 pm PDT #3353 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Well, when a person isn't starving or suffering leprosy, it is a lot easier to love one's neighbor and not just think of raiding their village, stealing their stuff and plundering their nubiles.
Agreed - but just having the tools to keep people from starving or suffering leprosy is not enough to keep them from starving. They have to have sufficient access to wealth and income to actually use them and not starve etc...

Which of course is where politics and economics come in.


Madrigal Costello - Apr 13, 2003 3:31:46 pm PDT #3354 of 9843
It's a remora, dimwit.

Well yeah, it's what's done with the knowledge and skills. A history teacher used to use the example of early humans discovering sharp rocks. Some would think to use them to prepare food, and others would think to use them to whack their neighbors to steal their food.


Typo Boy - Apr 13, 2003 3:34:51 pm PDT #3355 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

And where I think moonlit and I would agree is in believing the "use sharp stones to whack" people are pretty much in charge everywhere right now.


Typo Boy - Apr 13, 2003 3:38:08 pm PDT #3356 of 9843
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Oh and question for anyone who is familiar with the subtleties of English as spoken by the Irish.

I grew up near an Irish bar, and ran into an Irish acquaintence recently. He spoke of his wife as "Herself". I've encountered ths term spoken by Irish men before. It sometimes refers to a woman they love, sometimes to one they hate, but always it seems to one they fear, and who is important in their lives. Do I grasp the connotation properly?