Ah - I'm still with Tracey Chapman:
Heaven is a place on earth.
and with Phillip Pullman that we need to build "the Republic of Heaven".
We don't need utopias - just a will to make things better.
We've had the technology for a long time. What we need is the will, and the ability to defeat the rich and powerful of all sorts (which included the Marxist governments back when there were such) . I don't want to argue against your dream; if self sufficiency are what you want more power to you. But it does not look to me like we have to give up computers and television and the auto. The poor are not poor because some middle class westerners have a decent life; they are poor because of various oppressions; there really is enough for everyone to have pretty close to a middle class western life style if they wish - or such parts of it as they choose to have. It really is the politics and economics that are wrong - not the technology.
I was born in Dec of 59 - so I speak with infinite wisdom of one who is at least a month your elder...
I bow to your wisdom, oh 'one of more advanced years than I'.
We xposted. But I don't really think it is the fault of science; science provides the tools. The various technologists can figure you out ways to grow food, heat houses, dispose of your shit so it does not cause diseases, cure a lot of disease we do get, transport people to various locations. But no science can make people love one another; it seems a bit unfair to blame science for that. That, it seems to me, is up to us.
I like science, science can be fun, but culturally I still tend to think in metaphors.
Well, when a person isn't starving or suffering leprosy, it is a lot easier to love one's neighbor and not just think of raiding their village, stealing their stuff and plundering their nubiles.
Well, when a person isn't starving or suffering leprosy, it is a lot easier to love one's neighbor and not just think of raiding their village, stealing their stuff and plundering their nubiles.
Agreed - but just having the tools to keep people from starving or suffering leprosy is not enough to keep them from starving. They have to have sufficient access to wealth and income to actually use them and not starve etc...
Which of course is where politics and economics come in.
Well yeah, it's what's done with the knowledge and skills. A history teacher used to use the example of early humans discovering sharp rocks. Some would think to use them to prepare food, and others would think to use them to whack their neighbors to steal their food.
And where I think moonlit and I would agree is in believing the "use sharp stones to whack" people are pretty much in charge everywhere right now.
Oh and question for anyone who is familiar with the subtleties of English as spoken by the Irish.
I grew up near an Irish bar, and ran into an Irish acquaintence recently. He spoke of his wife as "Herself". I've encountered ths term spoken by Irish men before. It sometimes refers to a woman they love, sometimes to one they hate, but always it seems to one they fear, and who is important in their lives. Do I grasp the connotation properly?
I have a lot of sympathy for Moonlit's stance, but I agree that
no science can make people love one another; it seems a bit unfair to blame science for that. That, it seems to me, is up to us.
Absolutely. Yes. (Although I actually found
The Amber Spyglass
tremendously disappointing. I wanted a sense of spiritual depth, and I didn't like the ending at all. YMMV.)
But
I don't feel confident that my comforts aren't founded upon other people's poverty. Coffee, chocolate, sugar, trainers, clothes - lots and lots and lots of things that I use are produced by people who are being exploited and kept in poverty (even effective slavery, for a lot of the cocoa trade, apparently). I mean, I suck, so I make only half-assed efforts to buy FairTrade type products - I'm not being moral highground girl. But my understanding is that, for these people to enjoy near-middleclass Western conditions, the
actual
middleclass Western folks would have to give up some of the stuff they take for granted. And people absolutely won't do that for the greater good. I mean, I agree that it's the politics and economics that's the problem, but I think that the middle class westerners are culpable to some extent.
This may just be because I've been fed this stuff, mind you - I'm by no means an expert on international politics. But I think that consumerism - the very
concept
of consumerism and wastefulness, which is so thoroughly ingrained in the West, is a Bad Thing. Labels. Logos. Throwing stuff away when it's still useful. All that stuff. The sense of value being limited to how much money it costs absolutely permeates our society, and it's terribly flawed, but it's insidious. Depressingly so.
...shutting up now.
