I think I'm "culturally Christian" in the sense Sparky1 is using it, too. I'm not a believer, but I still go home for Christmas, exchange the gifts, have the tree, sing the carols, even go to church with the family. To some extent this is because I still haven't had the "Um, so, guys, you know I don't really believe this anymore, right?" talk with my parents and don't really want to.

At the same time, though, I do have issues with the idea of celebrating Christmas at all as a nonbeliever. The idea of the holiday is so wedded in my mind with the religious significance that I can't see myself having a purely secular celebration of it. To me, the crucial part of the Christmas tree is the white lights (symbolizing Christ's purity) and the star/angel on top that symbolizes those two Christmas story elements. The presents really do live in my mind as representative of the gifts of the Magi. The One True Christmas Carol is "O Holy Night."

I have friends for whom this is not true. The only friend I exchanged gifts with in college, who LOVED Christmas, was also a very staunch atheist from a family of very staunch atheists. She saw Christmas as purely cultural, which worked for her. I can't do it, though - my mind doesn't let me.

If I were to get married to somebody of like mind and raise a family, right now, I would have to seriously think hard about what we did at this time of year. It wouldn't be fair not to have SOME sort of celebration for the kids, but I'd feel weird calling it Christmas if I'm not teaching them about Christ. I'd probably push for calling it our midwinter celebration, complete with gifts and pretty tree and holly and stuff, but no carols or stories about Jesus OR Santa - they'll get enough of those cultural traditions outside the home, but I don't believe in them and would feel uncomfortable, to some extent, supporting them.

Of course, it's more likely I'll end up marrying somebody Christian enough that we decide to raise the kids Christian, or at least culturally Christian (which I'd probably support - conflicted allows me lots of flexibility, actually) so this would all be moot.

Or I could keep being in love with Gershwin Girl, convert to Judaism, and pretty much let her lead the way in Orthodox Jewish holiday traditions.

Do the summers bother you too?

Or are you bothered by the wrongness of the winters?

Do the summers bother you too?

Or are you bothered by the wrongness of the winters?

Mostly the winters. Although the summers are, on average, less hot here (lake effect) that doesn't bother me as much.

San Francisco weather seemed really weird to me....

culturally christian

I was baptised as a baby. I vaguely remember chuch services when I was tiny. and then we didn't go to church until we were 15 . We did however celbrate easter and christmas. I read a children's bible as a kid. I do not think that general values of christianity are bad ( the practice is another matter). However , I have no belife in christ as my savior. In fact, I don't believe I need a savior. However, I still celbrate holidays that are christian. Actually only christmas. Easter has become giant brunch day. I guess I also mean that even though I am not religious- my understanding of the world is at least partially inflenced by being raised in a community that was 95% christian.

by useing the words 'culturally christian' - it is one of the ways I acknowlege my biases in how I look at the world. I picked it up from the friends I had that were jewish, but didn't practice the faith they were brought up with.

I'd probably push for calling it our midwinter celebration

This is wrong. And possibly sinful. Definitely boycottable.

It's an early winter celebration, darn it.

the white lights (symbolizing Christ's purity) and the star/angel on top that symbolizes those two Christmas story elements. The presents really do live in my mind as representative of the gifts of the Magi

Whoa. I may have heard those things at some point, but I've long since forgotten them. Sure, that'd complicate the secularization somewhat (do colored lights represent anything?).

A guy may be going to jail for not completing his drug rehab program. It was run by a Pentacostal group, and the requirement was that he give up Catholicism (which the Pentacostals labeled witchcraft) and become a Pentacostal. ACLU is suing and I presume they will win. [link]

Or rather, I don't understand how someone can be part of a faith culturally but not religiously.

Aren't all secular Jews an example?

The idea of the holiday is so wedded in my mind with the religious significance that I can't see myself having a purely secular celebration

Because of the years without church - it isn't for me. DH may have had more problems with it but 1) he likes giving me gifts and 2) he likes giving 3) and all the trimmings - are mine and for me, and he can chose or not chose to get invovled in most of it.

Aren't all secular Jews an example?

I admit, I don't know much about Judaism, whether Orthodox or secular. So I didn't want to create an even bigger muddle by trying to compare it to Judaism.