Dang, that Cindy can sling the lingo.

First: I think I sneered. Shame on me. I am passionate on this issue, and these passions lead to excesses of language.

Further: If I said anything to disparage editorial acumen, it was inadvertent. Everyone beta's. It (beta-ing) works really well when you have some idea that the beta-ers have some well-informed basis for their opinions.

My experience as a wiki host has not led me to the conclusion that crowds are wise.

Now, back to the model that Cindy offers up. There are creators offering pay-by-the-chapter on the web. It is even working, sorta-kinda. Not to the level of funding needed to film a movie. Still, it is a seed of of what is needed.

the storyteller only has to spend whatever time/energy/money necessary to solicit one patron to fund his project, rather than two million patrons.

This is the core of the thing. Patronage by the crowd. There needs to be some way for people to put $5 on Whedon's (or Gus') future output.

Gus there are all sorts of ways to do that. You can have pay per download on your own website. You can do it on ipod or Amazon.

What would be needed to make that work are two other things. Some sort of trusted filter to help people select what to download. Take books. VW actually created a buffisita cook book via Cafe Press. If you value VW's time at anything it was probably a non-profit enterprise, but then again profit was not the point. But if you want it (Or some other author-to-audience technique ) to become default method you have offer the following

1)Some way the reader (or listener or viewer) can select out of the hundreds of thousand produced what to consider. Note I'm not even saying some way for the downloader to choose - just how the downloader narrows the universive of choices down to the the poin where she or he can choose from among them.

2)Editing - maybe one writer in 200 can edit their own writing completely. The rest of us need editors - who also will need to be paid. And editor does not equal beta reader.

3) Don't forget typography. After you have the exact final wording chosen, there is still font choice page layout and all that good stuff. Not to mention graphics, cover art....

And this is just for books! If you go to music you can multiply this a hell of lot. And by the time you get completely collaberative works such as movies and TV seiries....

Think outside the box. But there is a hell of a lot of stuff in that box creative workers need if they are going to ge paid for their labor. So outside the box you are going to need some other container. Or maybe a rack, or a stand or a shelf - something so that when the box is taken away the intellectual worker is not left suddenly have to learn to juggle.

But it is true that our system is broken. One hint of this: We have longer and more powerful copyrights, larger corporations own publishers, studios and such. And artists for the most part are paid less. In real dollars, writers earn less per hour of work than they did in 1976. Before you blame it on lack of literacy so do musicians. Were a whole lot of computer gamers around in 1976 - but I would save game software developers don't earn more than a decade ago. Neither do other types of software developers.

OK not an argument: but at least a hint that something is wrong besides eating that damn pomegranite. (Apple is a mistranslation no?)

And editor does not equal beta reader.

t coughs

That totally depends on who you get to beta it.

But carry on. I don't have a dog in this fight.

That totally depends on who you get to beta it.

HA! I got an army of 'em.

Are we talking about feedback for the authorial segment? Your buddies will lurves it, or remain silent. A professional beta-er will rip the skin off you in the hope you will grow a better complexion.

A professional beta-er will rip the skin off you in the hope you will grow a better complexion

Shouldn't that middleman be paid?

Shouldn't that middleman be paid?

Absolutely. That middleman. Middlemen after this do not contribute to the quality of the piece.

Gus, I wish you the best, but I am going to stop this discussion now because I don't feel like I am getting my point across to you.

Ah, crap. Don't go away mad, Tamara. Maybe you could simple-up your point for this simpleton.

And also chose to shoot Serenity here, which is rare these days.

In hindsight, maybe not such a good idea.