And also chose to shoot Serenity here, which is rare these days.

In hindsight, maybe not such a good idea.

Maybe this discussion is too serious-like for buffistas.

Sure, dogpile on Gus.

Huh. Ever consider that your worldview may be too simplistic?

I happen to agree there is a place for direct contact between creators and consumers, but this model doesn't scale well when you're talking about millions of consumers. At some point, various "middle-men" become a necessity, if only to perform those tasks the creator isn't good at.

Your buddies will lurves it, or remain silent.

Yours might. Mine hold my feet to the fire until I cry like a four-year-old who dropped her ice cream cone. It's part of the reason they're my buddies.

Exactly. My girlfriend wants to edit my writing because first off, she's a dyed-in-the-wool editor and second, if there's one person she won't pull punches with, it's me. None of my writer friends have ever let me down easy. It's all a matter of which buddies you go to. Mom is probably not a good idea.

My girlfriend wants to edit my writing because first off, she's a dyed-in-the-wool editor and second, if there's one person she won't pull punches with, it's me. None of my writer friends have ever let me down easy. It's all a matter of which buddies you go to.

This works when you have friends who value (your) good writing higher than they value your ego. They also have to trust that YOU value good writing higher than your own ego, as well.

In terms of distinguishing between a beta reader and an editor, that is exactly right. And when a beta-reader does equal editor then they are generously putting huge amounts of their time into doings stuff that people get paid for.

But it is not true that the rest does not contribute. You think that the guy who lays out the text does not contribute to the book? In print or in electronic form? You think layout is trivial in e-books?

And what if a book is aimed at 2 million readers? Ah they can hear about it from critics or reviewers. Great, and how do the critics or reviewers hear about it? How does the critic select a book from the 100,000 published. In the end you need a slush pile and some poor souls to spend hours each week reading through that slush pile. Or you need agencies who have slushpiles of their own to choose whom to represent.

You might not like the institutions we have to perform these functions, but tell me the functions are not needed.

I think the problem here is you are not being radical enough. You have to move into "another world is possible" territory here. Start thinking about what you want to replace the system we have with. I don't think you can just snip the parts you don't like away and expect what remains to work.

wrong thread, la la la

Umm I though thread drift was allowed in this one. It is continuing the Guscussion. But OK - it is getting a bit too large for just drift. If it contiues we will take it to natter.

I'm not mad, Gus. No worries.

No, Typo Boy, that was self-directed. I accidently posted my f2f photos in here.