We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so very pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die.

Mal ,'Serenity'


Buffista Music II: Wrath of Chaka Khan  

There's a lady plays her fav'rite records/On the jukebox ev'ry day/All day long she plays the same old songs/And she believes the things that they say/She sings along with all the saddest songs/And she believes the stories are real/She lets the music dictate the way that she feels.


Gandalfe - Oct 31, 2004 4:59:43 pm PST #5690 of 10003
The generation that could change the world is still looking for its car keys.

I found the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame to be scary.

What specifically about it?


tommyrot - Oct 31, 2004 5:02:37 pm PST #5691 of 10003
Sir, it's not an offence to let your cat eat your bacon. Okay? And we don't arrest cats, I'm very sorry.

Too slick and corporate.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - just not my personal preference.


Jon B. - Oct 31, 2004 5:07:57 pm PST #5692 of 10003
A turkey in every toilet -- only in America!

I've no use for the R&R Hall of Fame either. It's still a stupid comment.


Rio - Oct 31, 2004 8:03:00 pm PST #5693 of 10003
Are you ready to be strong?

But the basic point still stands -- most music writers are rock biased, which makes them unable to appreciate a lot of current pop culture, which makes them actually unqualified for their so-called jobs.


Angus G - Nov 01, 2004 2:28:17 am PST #5694 of 10003
Roguish Laird

Agreed Rio. I think some of her examples are just a little bit strange, like if you want to pick a pop song from 1979 that would have been considered "disposable" at the time in comparison to Van Morrison and is now an unimpeachable classic, I'd have gone for "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough".

t edit Actually, it appears the author is a man. So make that "his examples".


Jon B. - Nov 01, 2004 2:41:10 am PST #5695 of 10003
A turkey in every toilet -- only in America!

if you want to pick a pop song from 1979 that would have been considered "disposable" at the time in comparison to Van Morrison

Seriously. "The Message" was never considered disposable.


Hayden - Nov 01, 2004 6:11:19 am PST #5696 of 10003
aka "The artist formerly known as Corwood Industries."

I think that the writer has a point (which is, in fact, a point I made to a overly dismissive metalhead music critic the other day), but I think rockism is built on class issues: to be a pop music writer is to be an expert in pop music history, which is, in my experience, usually built on a foundation of serial obsessions with certain kinds of music. Which is generally rock and indie rock, because the people who are generally going to be obsessed with pop music enough to waste time learning its history and obsessing over it are fairly well-educated middle-class guys. In other words, I agree there's room for wider perspectives in pop music criticism (and a number of the residents of this thread have those wider perspectives), but the vast majority are going to be rockists by the very nature of the required engagement. Any of these guys worth their salt should be aware of their prejudices, but being aware of prejudices and getting rid of them (or even wanting to get rid of them, this being a discussion about pop culture entertainment, not policies affecting basic liberty or something like that) are two different things.

Now that I've written this, I realize I'm probably saying things y'all already know. But I'm going to post this anyway.


DavidS - Nov 01, 2004 7:50:47 am PST #5697 of 10003
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

But the basic point still stands -- most music writers are rock biased, which makes them unable to appreciate a lot of current pop culture, which makes them actually unqualified for their so-called jobs.

I don't know. "Rockism" has been kicked around in the Village Voice Pazz & Jop Poll for more than a decade now. Christgau was an early adopter of hip hop. Simon Reynolds and most British critics have always made a clear distinction between the larger category of Pop and the subset of Rock. Sasha Frere-Jones has been championing pop for a while. I think rockism has been under scrutiny for a while now.

It was in the early 90s that rap records began to eclipse rock both on the charts and culturally.

Admittedly, there are always going to be little niches of indie rock fans who generate more press about their obsessions. And I definitely see a rockist bias in the mainstream press that will linger until a new critical language emerges which can handle pop.

That's the bigger issue from my perspective. "Authenticity" was true north for hippie culture and punker than thou and blues and the recent jibes at New Country. It was always posited as opposing the dominant corporately owned media. There is, and has been for a long time, an odd leftie/socialist implicit critique of capitalist culture which makes it difficult to grasp pop. Which is all about radio friendly unit shifters.


Alicia K - Nov 01, 2004 9:02:29 am PST #5698 of 10003
Uncertainty could be our guiding light.

I still don't think I've ever heard an explanation as to why the R&R Hall of Fame is in Ohio. I mean ... Ohio??


DavidS - Nov 01, 2004 9:08:42 am PST #5699 of 10003
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

I still don't think I've ever heard an explanation as to why the R&R Hall of Fame is in Ohio. I mean ... Ohio??

Cleveland Rocks.

I think Memphis would've been more appropriate from a historical point of view. However, Cleveland was where Alan Freed's show originated and that did a lot to spread the notion of Rock and Roll. Also, just from my experience in college in Ohio, I'd have to say that rock and roll is just a huge part of Cleveland's identity. Moreso than any other city I know - even ones with more famous scenes, like San Francisco or LA.

San Francisco probably self-identifies as much as a jazz city as it does with its San Francisco Sound era. LA is more about the recording industry. Austin is about blues and songwriting. Like that. But it's rock and roll or nothing in Cleveland.