Though to counter my own argument, one place where you do hear a huge seventies James Brown influence is in African music, particularly Fela.

Funk starts on the thumb-callous of Larry Graham on "Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin)"

Ooh! And then that hey/scream thing? So fucking awesome. I am hearing the right song in my head, right?

Ooh! And then that hey/scream thing? So fucking awesome. I am hearing the right song in my head, right?

Don't you have any Sly in your house? See, this is what I'm talking about.

"Thankyou..." isn't so screamy to my recollection. More ominous and low and bass-popping.

note to self: put more Sly on the Jesse funk thang.

"Thankyou..." isn't so screamy to my recollection. More ominous and low and bass-popping.

Well, the singing style is very different from other S&FS hits. I'd apply "scream" more to the beginning of "Dance to the Music."

I'd also argue that Charles Wright & the (and I know I'm not getting this exactly right) Watts 103rd Street Rhythm Band were at least funky, and maybe even funk. Example -- "Express Yourself."

I'd also argue that Charles Wright & the (and I know I'm not getting this exactly right) Watts 103rd Street Rhythm Band were at least funky, and maybe even funk. Example -- "Express Yourself."

Yup, an underrated band right on that cusp of hard soul and funk.

Now playing: Nick Hornby's favorite record of the last fifteen years.

Points to anybody who knows what it is.

(Hint: it's very unfunky.)

I think Sly and the Family Stone were far more influential on the direction of black music from the late sixties on.

That's because you see everything through Bay Area lenses.:-) Seriously, Sly was huge (and his burn out is one of the music's saddest episodes), but JB was a big influence on him. The only one? Of course not. Sly's tastes and listening habits were famously catholic, and part of his brilliance was taking them and making "a whole new thing" out of them. Would there have been a Family Stone w/o JB? Probably. Would it have been different? I think that's undeniable. The soundscape created by "Out of Sight" and "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" was as indispensible to his development as his love of the Beatles.

One of the problems about debating influence is that it's often such a two-way street. Sly was influenced by James. Larry Graham influenced Bootsy. Bootsy's tenure with JB was short but important for both. He hooks up w/ George Clinton (whose tastes were nearly as broad as Sly's) and brings Sly *and* the Godfather w/ him & influences countless new funkateers. And Bernard Edwards' bass lines were sampled as often as anyone's in hip hop. And James Jamerson had already moved the bass a central position in R&B before Larry Graham and Nard. And Mingus had achieved something similar in jazz in the fifties - the scene from which James Jamerson emerged. Miles lifted the bass line from "Say It Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud" for "Yesternow" on Jack Johnson. And you could still hear Pops' influence on Miles on that record. So it goes.

Nick Hornby guess:

I would say Bruce, but I don't think of you as a Bruce fan...so..hmm. I dunno.

Also - JB's Foundations of Funk: A Brand New Bag 64-69 is the most fun album I think I have ever heard - stayed in my stereo for months after I bought it. But I don't really know anything about him - or funk for that matter.

Hornby guess:

TFC's Songs from Northern Britain?

Seriously, Sly was huge (and his burn out is one of the music's saddest episodes), but JB was a big influence on him. The only one? Of course not. Sly's tastes and listening habits were famously catholic, and part of his brilliance was taking them and making "a whole new thing" out of them. Would there have been a Family Stone w/o JB? Probably. Would it have been different? I think that's undeniable.

No question there's James Brown in Sly. I don't mean to slight James to elevate Sly's influence. But...

The soundscape created by "Out of Sight" and "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" was as indispensible to his development as his love of the Beatles.

My point here is that nobody sounds like "Out of Sight," James. Not in American music anyway. He cracks open a rhythmic territory with these mid sixties singles, so yeah, that was liberating. And Sly and Larry took advantage of the new open space, but where they took it (and where the music followed) was a very different place than James went.

One of the problems about debating influence is that it's often such a two-way street. Sly was influenced by James. Larry Graham influenced Bootsy. Bootsy's tenure with JB was short but important for both. He hooks up w/ George Clinton (whose tastes were nearly as broad as Sly's) and brings Sly *and* the Godfather w/ him & influences countless new funkateers. And Bernard Edwards' bass lines were sampled as often as anyone's in hip hop.

And here's where I think you can make a case against me that with Bernard and Niles you've got people who are joining these strands together with Bernard drawing off Larry Graham and Niles fully versed in all things Jimmy Nolan. But Niles is just about the last important rhythm guitar innovator in black music. You just don't hear guitar much in black music anymore as part of the rhythm section.

And you're right in noting the influence daisy chain goes 'round and 'round. My bigger point though is that the image of Sly's interracial, multi-gendered band was so potent that it has historically overwhelmed seeing their influence on funk and rap.

I mean musicians, know, but There's a Riot Going On is more honored than heard, and it's the immediate parent of rap as disparate as the Bomb Squad's productions or NWA.