More about Gandalf: I liked his humanity and imperial nature here. I wasn't a big fan of Gandalf the Grey -- he was a bit mundane. I did like him more as the White, and even more with the EE stuff.

I want to find Bernard Hill and tell him that the excised Saruman scene wasn't his best one. Sure, it was good, but the death scene and FORTH EORLINGAS!! -- golden and magical. In fact, I think Aragorn's Black Gate speech didn't stand a chance.

Oh god. Theoden yelling "Death!" as the Rohirrim charge into battle is still an automatic crypoint for me. I get all shivery.

Bah. Gandalf does have the palantir when they leave for Minas Tirith. Why did PJ omit all allusions to it? Yeah, he's hallucinating in the EE, but toss in a palantir, and he looks so much more fallen than addled.

Aragorn's palantir definitely comes from Gandalf--the material around it that we see in the Throne Room is the same as the material Gandalf had around it at Edoras . Also, Faramir's lieutenant, Mardil, was killed in exactly the same way in the theatrical release.

Cool info I learned from the commentaries: Gothmog and the Witchking were both played by Lawrence Makaore, but the voices were from Andy Serkis for the Witchking, and Craig Parker (better known as Haldir) for Gothmog.

Not only did Lawrence Makaore play both Gothmog and the Witchking, but, ita, he *was* Lurtz. So he's there, just in a different guise. In one of the commentaries, when he's told he's going to be a Mordor orc, he said, "But they're runty guys! How am I going to play one of those weasly Mordor orcs!"

As for Gothmog's looks, apparently the Weta folks were designing up various faces and put a few lumps on Gothmog. Peter comes through, pauses and says, "He needs more lumps," grabs some latex and sticks it on in various places. "Something like that." So the Weta people, in an effort to find an effect that even Peter will declare over-the-top, just pile on the latex. Peter comes in later, studies it, says, "Just a bit more and he's right."

I was so sure Gothmog was modeled on some other influence, and couldn't put my finger on it. I think it was DX who suggested the Elephant Man, which is the closest Team Jackson ever came to a reference.

Theoden yelling "Death!" as the Rohirrim charge into battle is still an automatic crypoint for me.

I begrudge him the line, because it was originally Eomer's (and in a completely different context). Good speech before that, though; 11th C. apocalyptic poetry ages well!

Oh yeah, the speech leading up to that cry is a key element of the whole thing. (I don't remember Eomer being the one to cry "Death!"--what part is that in?) My other main automatic crypoint (well, besides the entire last half-hour or so, which I can't even pick a moment from) is the scene in which Gandalf tells Pippin about death and the Undying Land. Shit, I'm tearing up now just thinking about it. I don't believe in Heaven, or any kind of afterlife, really, but in that moment, I believe wholeheartedly.

(I don't remember Eomer being the one to cry "Death!"--what part is that in?)

After he sees Theoden die and recognizes Eowyn lying seemingly dead on the battlefield.

ita, he *was* Lurtz.

I know that -- I'm head of the Lurtz fan club -- my issue is that Gothmog et al have no magnetism, and Lurtz reeked of it.

I diagnosed Gothmog as suffering from neurofibromatosis after my first in-theatre viewing. And sure enough, PJ made a John Merrick reference in the EE extras.

I'm still thinking. I'm pretty sure I agree with ita on almost all of her points. One moment I treasure was the "Smeagol LIED!" admission. I'll have to watch it several times before I really have anything coherent to say.