He was never pictured as likable in any way, except for the love he had for Boromir.

Oh, I think unlike in the movie he showed true, non-condescending affection towards Pippin. That's what I mean by gruff but likeable. I think he showed off some of the leadership qualities that Gandalf praised in the book, whatever their personal disagreements.

He was never Theoden likeable, but I thought he had moments where he was likeable. The singing scene in the book is much different in my memory of it, at least.

He was kinder to Pippin in the books, and ready to give his all defending Gondor almost up to the end. Both book-Gandalf and book-Aragorn say good things about him, if I recall, though admittedly the subtext is "and then he turned into an asshat."

I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.

I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.

And he really didn't lose it completely until Faramir came back mostly dead. I don't remember him giving up the defense of MT - just that he wasn't going to be sticking around for the party.

I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.

I'd go along with that, but I still think the pride and despair were shown as significant flaws that lessened the respect owed him.

I don't remember him giving up the defense of MT - just that he wasn't going to be sticking around for the party.

He definitely did give up defense when he saw the Black Ships of the Corsairs in the palantir, causing him to assume that all hope was lostand that Sauron had captured the ring. I'll look up the passage:

From the chapter "The Siege of Gondor", as Faramir was suffering his fever n the White Tower, we have this

Men came to the door crying for the Lord of the City. 'Nay, I will not come down,' he said. 'I must stay beside my son. He might still speak before the end. But that is near. Follow whom you will, even the Grey Fool, though his hope has failed. Here I stay."

He definitely did give up defense when he saw the Black Ships of the Corsairs in the palantir, causing him to assume that all hope was lostand that Sauron had captured the ring. I'll look up the passage:

I find that significantly less than actively trying to send the troops home as he did in the movie. I think I understand why they made the change (although this is a rare case where they made a character less conflicted rather than more), but I think it's a significant shift from the book.

And again, the lack of the palantir as an explanation makes him even more simplistically crazy/villainous.

Also, the change to his demise made the character less than he was in the book.

I still think the pride and despair were shown as significant flaws that lessened the respect owed him.

I think that the words said over Boromir's death, as compared to that of his father's, show exactly what JRRT thought of the two men's final actions. Boromir gets a beautiful, elegaic send-off because of his redemptive actions by trying to save Merry and Pippin. Denethor gets a rather dismissive farewell line from Gandalf.

I do like some of the fanfic I've read recently that speculate that Pippin had lingering issues from Denethor's final days and minutes (hobbit angst fic--my favorite!), but Tolkien never really goes into that possibility, unfortunately.

I like how they describe Denethor's palantir after his death, as only showing two hands slowly clenching in fire, unless the person doing the viewing had a strong enough will to bring the palantir to heel.

Also, the change to his demise made the character less than he was in the book

Yes, this. Denethor is just about the only instance in the movies where a major character suffered as a result of the adaptation. Almost everyone else got more interesting and complicated, not less.

I felt sorry for John Noble, because the book-Denethor was an interesting guy, if tragic. Movie-Denethor, NSM.

I felt sorry for John Noble, because the book-Denethor was an interesting guy, if tragic. Movie-Denethor, NSM.

Doubly so because I thought Noble was very good in the role they gave him, and I think he would have been fine if it had been as written.

Making him lose it bascially just over his sons diminishes his character, whereas in the book, because of the palantir and Sauron, he thinks all hope is lost period - his sons are the final straw, not the whole enchilada (to mix metaphors).