And Angel was certainly interesting during most of those times you've mentioned. The whole 'champion' thing is what bores me.

And Angel was certainly interesting during most of those times you've mentioned. The whole 'champion' thing is what bores me.

I get the feeling we'll be seeing a bit more of the ass-kicking Angel in the weeks to come (I'm totally unspoiled as ever), but there was certainly foreshadowing of his discomfort with their currently roles, plus Spike's exit line from his bedroom had to just grind Angel's gears. I agree that I prefer him in action but I also think the guy carries enough remorse and guilt for a hundred lifetimes. He knows he can just squeeze the life out of pretty much anyone who opposes him and yet probably agonizes over the thought of the next single drop of blood spilled on his account. I give him credit for that struggle even during the stretches of episodes when the writers are trying to bore me to sleep with him. Spike, on the other claw, has the IQ and the contributory moral value of a squirrel (a couple of weeks in a basement being all craazee). I'd pay good money to watch him eaten by crows.

Having typed the above paragraph, snarky vamp-dusting Spike was a good time. More of that would be good. Good conflict. Not whiny, I'm so unhappy with my place in the cosmos conflict, conflict from showing characters defining themselves through action and overlapping each other's territory. Possibilities. I like the direction, hope they sustain it.

I agree that I prefer him in action but I also think the guy carries enough remorse and guilt for a hundred lifetimes. He knows he can just squeeze the life out of pretty much anyone who opposes him and yet probably agonizes over the thought of the next single drop of blood spilled on his account.

See, it's this that bores me. The brooding. The guilt. The agony.

I much prefer the simple, cheerful, straightforward, not-gonna-dwell-on-it kind of guy that Spike was for most of the run.

I much prefer the simple, cheerful, straightforward, not-gonna-dwell-on-it kind of guy that Spike was for most of the run.

Hee. My take is that I hate that Spike gets a free pass, and I like the tension between Angel's knowledge that he has to act and that action will cause harm, and he has to deal with it.

I loved the scene where ?Lindsey? tells Spike that he's actually doing selfless good now, that it doesn't count when you are doing good deeds to get in a girl's pants. The deeds are still good. The selflessness? NSM. Of course, the irony that Spike is being told this while being manipulated for evil purposes is pretty good writing too, I think.

The show drags for me too when they over-brood Angel. Angel watching Connor with his new family was a brilliant knife-twisting moment for me. Action, consequences, and Angel having to suffer them, in spite of his superior knowledge, connections and abilities.

I'm way way way behind in the Angel thread or I'd talk about this over there too/instead, sorry to bore anyone looking to talk blizzard with this vampire stuff.

See, the only thing that watching Angel watch Connor with his new family made me feel was disgust that his new family didn't make him cut his hair either.

I don't think that Spike's getting a free pass. Different people deal with things differently.

Liam was a good for nothing ass. William was a nice - if too attached to mother - boy. Angelus was a very, very nasty vampire. Spike was a killer, but we've never had any indication that he did anything nearly as horrible as what Angelus did to Dru (which I still feel is his most despicable act). Soul!Angel broods, doesn't mean that Soul!Spike has to.

Blizzard? There's a blizzard? Where?

And this is a show thread, as much as it may not seem so these days. I don't know that any of us are in the Angel thread now.

Elena IS here! t tacklehugs and kisses mwah mwah mwah

I am!

What's up?

Are the peanut butter cookies still your favourite? They are vw's favourite too.

See, the only thing that watching Angel watch Connor with his new family made me feel was disgust that his new family didn't make him cut his hair either.

Bummer. The writers missed you with the payoff for the entire Connor drama. I hated the whole Connor thing, pretty much every minute, but they did get me to feel for Angel with the big finish. Once again, he's the passerby in the great human pageant, this time even with his own flesh and blood, his nose up against the glass, as it has been figuratively all these long years.

I don't think that Spike's getting a free pass. Different people deal with things differently.

Not dealing doesn't count. Not having to have any consequences either. Getting to troop along in big brother's blazed trail for free credits still doesn't count.

Liam was a good for nothing ass. William was a nice - if too attached to mother - boy. Angelus was a very, very nasty vampire. Spike was a killer, but we've never had any indication that he did anything nearly as horrible as what Angelus did to Dru (which I still feel is his most despicable act)

Liam wasn't much different than many people I knew in college. It doesn't inform who Angelus was. Is Spike any less of a mass murderer because he was awkward with girls rather than a molester of the servants? We are expected to believe that Angelus is particularly inventive at evil vampire deeds. I don't believe he gets any particular extra points over Spike, except perhaps for being around longer, and therefore probably having a higher count. William the Bloody. Cut a terrible swath across Europe. Spike is the same monster Angelus is. Just because he is jaunty and plays the Pistols doesn't mean he shouldn't be suffering. Just because we have seen some of Angelus' deeds on camera doesn't mean Spike hasn't performed similar atrocities. He's killed what, thousands of people? Tens of thousands? Surely the Slayers weren't the only time he played with his food. Real people deal with horrific trauma encountering individual death in their lives. For Spike that's like, so last week. And he's in the queue for the Shanshu? Could there be a greater abomination?

And this is a show thread, as much as it may not seem so these days. I don't know that any of us are in the Angel thread now.

Ah whew. Glad to hear it. I missed the heyday of the taunt-worthy years, although not in spirit, for I was taunting at other boards. ;)

Errr, I'm not disputing that Spike has killed. I'm saying that Angelus displayed a greater level of cruelty - specifically citing his treatment of Dru as my main evidence of this.

As for the writers missing me with the pay off for the entire Connor arc ... I think you can blame the acting as well.

Last season the show was all about Wes for me. And I think that the acting, even moreso than the writing, was responsible for that.