See, the only thing that watching Angel watch Connor with his new family made me feel was disgust that his new family didn't make him cut his hair either.

Bummer. The writers missed you with the payoff for the entire Connor drama. I hated the whole Connor thing, pretty much every minute, but they did get me to feel for Angel with the big finish. Once again, he's the passerby in the great human pageant, this time even with his own flesh and blood, his nose up against the glass, as it has been figuratively all these long years.

I don't think that Spike's getting a free pass. Different people deal with things differently.

Not dealing doesn't count. Not having to have any consequences either. Getting to troop along in big brother's blazed trail for free credits still doesn't count.

Liam was a good for nothing ass. William was a nice - if too attached to mother - boy. Angelus was a very, very nasty vampire. Spike was a killer, but we've never had any indication that he did anything nearly as horrible as what Angelus did to Dru (which I still feel is his most despicable act)

Liam wasn't much different than many people I knew in college. It doesn't inform who Angelus was. Is Spike any less of a mass murderer because he was awkward with girls rather than a molester of the servants? We are expected to believe that Angelus is particularly inventive at evil vampire deeds. I don't believe he gets any particular extra points over Spike, except perhaps for being around longer, and therefore probably having a higher count. William the Bloody. Cut a terrible swath across Europe. Spike is the same monster Angelus is. Just because he is jaunty and plays the Pistols doesn't mean he shouldn't be suffering. Just because we have seen some of Angelus' deeds on camera doesn't mean Spike hasn't performed similar atrocities. He's killed what, thousands of people? Tens of thousands? Surely the Slayers weren't the only time he played with his food. Real people deal with horrific trauma encountering individual death in their lives. For Spike that's like, so last week. And he's in the queue for the Shanshu? Could there be a greater abomination?

And this is a show thread, as much as it may not seem so these days. I don't know that any of us are in the Angel thread now.

Ah whew. Glad to hear it. I missed the heyday of the taunt-worthy years, although not in spirit, for I was taunting at other boards. ;)

Errr, I'm not disputing that Spike has killed. I'm saying that Angelus displayed a greater level of cruelty - specifically citing his treatment of Dru as my main evidence of this.

As for the writers missing me with the pay off for the entire Connor arc ... I think you can blame the acting as well.

Last season the show was all about Wes for me. And I think that the acting, even moreso than the writing, was responsible for that.

The cookies are all gone and I am so very, very sad.

Even though peanutbutter WAS my favorite, the cherry almond has won my heart.

Cherry almond was good.

Peanut butter is possibly my least favourite cookie.

Really? And yet you make them so well!

They do turn out well, and I'm not at all tempted to eat the dough.

I love cookie dough.

Errr, I'm not disputing that Spike has killed. I'm saying that Angelus displayed a greater level of cruelty - specifically citing his treatment of Dru as my main evidence of this.

They've given us Holtz's family and the Jenny Calendar mise-en-scene as well. It isn't an issue for me. I mean, if two man-eating tigers are chewing through villages, do I hate the one that makes pictures with entrails more? I just want them both dead. The sheer scale of the killing that they both have done means they are monsters of the same degree to me. My view is also that in all those numbers, given his being a demon and all, it is pretty likely that Spike has indulged in some pretty horrific torture, it just hasn't been necessary from a plot perspective to show us, unlike Angelus.

As for the writers missing me with the pay off for the entire Connor arc ... I think you can blame the acting as well.

Last season the show was all about Wes for me. And I think that the acting, even moreso than the writing, was responsible for that.

Oh, you mean Big Dave. Well, I get that, but I tend to partition how I feel about the characters/writing and the performances. I think Marsters is pretty spiff (when he isn't chewing the countryside) but I don't get why Spike is not dust, my issue. Wes/Alexis, I agree totally. Wes and Lilah were a real highlight of last season for me, and I enjoyed last season quite a bit. Giles and ASH were always a big part of the appeal of BtVS for me, and I agonized over how they let the character slide into unrecognizability, instead of giving him some fresh vitality. Wes and Alexis fill that gap somewhat.

To get on topic for a second, I'm not a fan of peanut butter cookies. Actively dislike them. I like peanut butter, I just don't think it is dessert. I'm big on cookies (tea and biccies is a survival ritual, not an indulgence), but the whole peanut butter thing passed me by.

My view is also that in all those numbers, given his being a demon and all, it is pretty likely that Spike has indulged in some pretty horrific torture, it just hasn't been necessary from a plot perspective to show us, unlike Angelus.

They made so much noise about the terror that is Angelus, and even the power dynamics in the Fang Gang seemed to reflect that he was more horrible than the others, that I assumed that the lack of evidence for Spike being equivalent (or perhaps comparable) was because he wasn't. Not that he wasn't more savage than the average bear, just less so than Daddy.

I mean, if two man-eating tigers are chewing through villages, do I hate the one that makes pictures with entrails more?

You shouldn't hate the tiger at all. Most of the time when a person is killed by a wild animal it is either because the human encroached or because the animal is unable to hunt its normal prey. I always feel very bad when a bear is shot because a hiker went and got themselves mauled.

The sheer scale of the killing that they both have done means they are monsters of the same degree to me.

See, I disagree. What Angelus did to Dru was worse than killing her.

My view is also that in all those numbers, given his being a demon and all, it is pretty likely that Spike has indulged in some pretty horrific torture, it just hasn't been necessary from a plot perspective to show us, unlike Angelus.

Ah. For me, if we haven't seen it in show or had it referred to, it didn't happen.