I did not watch Angel last night because, surprise, surprise, I fell asleep reading my book. I did remember to tape it for Brent so I'll watch it sometime this week.

Not a lot actually *happened*, Megan - this episode was mostly setup for a future arc. It was okay, and hey! I'm glad to see Lindsay back again , plus snarky Spike was fun, but I need to see where the whole thing is going.

I thought it was interesting in a what is Angel going to do when Spike tells him that a guy named Doyle who gets vision is sending him out to do good kind of way.

And, also, I enjoyed that Spike was snarky to his rescuees, because, really, who goes walking down a dark alley?

I mean, John, that Angel, as he has frequently been presented, is a little to straightforward for my taste in fictional men. My taste in real men is to asstudiously avoid baggage of any kind.

I missed the first half, but the Lindsey thing is a good hook, I'll agree. The rerun later on was S1 with the daywalker ring guest starring Spike, and I found it interesting that JM moves very differently now from then. There was almost a ... frig. Closest word I can grab is jaunty, though that's not it, but anyway side to it. Guy was bouncing around like he had flubber in his shoes, but it actually looked pretty cool. Interesting contrast.

I mean, John, that Angel, as he has frequently been presented, is a little to straightforward for my taste in fictional men. My taste in real men is to asstudiously avoid baggage of any kind.

Oh, wise choice, Elena, for sure. Didn't mean to imply otherwise, just snerking at the idea that the mass-murdering scourge of Europe in hair gel and a duster wasn't grey enough for you. I mean, they don't play up the dark or the avenger part enough, but this is the guy who locked in a basement full of lawyers to their certain death, who killed his own son, who set fire to Dru and Darla, who ... well, you probably get the idea that I think Angel is plenty dark and the fan reaction to SpikeySue irks me more than a little.

Having ranted all that :), I enjoyed the ep quite a bit, and what's more enjoyed Spike in it. Go figure. Weird tattoo boy was also fun, which is against type for me, considering I think he is the second-most over-hyped character ever to briefly grace the series.

And Angel was certainly interesting during most of those times you've mentioned. The whole 'champion' thing is what bores me.

And Angel was certainly interesting during most of those times you've mentioned. The whole 'champion' thing is what bores me.

I get the feeling we'll be seeing a bit more of the ass-kicking Angel in the weeks to come (I'm totally unspoiled as ever), but there was certainly foreshadowing of his discomfort with their currently roles, plus Spike's exit line from his bedroom had to just grind Angel's gears. I agree that I prefer him in action but I also think the guy carries enough remorse and guilt for a hundred lifetimes. He knows he can just squeeze the life out of pretty much anyone who opposes him and yet probably agonizes over the thought of the next single drop of blood spilled on his account. I give him credit for that struggle even during the stretches of episodes when the writers are trying to bore me to sleep with him. Spike, on the other claw, has the IQ and the contributory moral value of a squirrel (a couple of weeks in a basement being all craazee). I'd pay good money to watch him eaten by crows.

Having typed the above paragraph, snarky vamp-dusting Spike was a good time. More of that would be good. Good conflict. Not whiny, I'm so unhappy with my place in the cosmos conflict, conflict from showing characters defining themselves through action and overlapping each other's territory. Possibilities. I like the direction, hope they sustain it.

I agree that I prefer him in action but I also think the guy carries enough remorse and guilt for a hundred lifetimes. He knows he can just squeeze the life out of pretty much anyone who opposes him and yet probably agonizes over the thought of the next single drop of blood spilled on his account.

See, it's this that bores me. The brooding. The guilt. The agony.

I much prefer the simple, cheerful, straightforward, not-gonna-dwell-on-it kind of guy that Spike was for most of the run.

I much prefer the simple, cheerful, straightforward, not-gonna-dwell-on-it kind of guy that Spike was for most of the run.

Hee. My take is that I hate that Spike gets a free pass, and I like the tension between Angel's knowledge that he has to act and that action will cause harm, and he has to deal with it.

I loved the scene where ?Lindsey? tells Spike that he's actually doing selfless good now, that it doesn't count when you are doing good deeds to get in a girl's pants. The deeds are still good. The selflessness? NSM. Of course, the irony that Spike is being told this while being manipulated for evil purposes is pretty good writing too, I think.

The show drags for me too when they over-brood Angel. Angel watching Connor with his new family was a brilliant knife-twisting moment for me. Action, consequences, and Angel having to suffer them, in spite of his superior knowledge, connections and abilities.

I'm way way way behind in the Angel thread or I'd talk about this over there too/instead, sorry to bore anyone looking to talk blizzard with this vampire stuff.

See, the only thing that watching Angel watch Connor with his new family made me feel was disgust that his new family didn't make him cut his hair either.

I don't think that Spike's getting a free pass. Different people deal with things differently.

Liam was a good for nothing ass. William was a nice - if too attached to mother - boy. Angelus was a very, very nasty vampire. Spike was a killer, but we've never had any indication that he did anything nearly as horrible as what Angelus did to Dru (which I still feel is his most despicable act). Soul!Angel broods, doesn't mean that Soul!Spike has to.