I would much rather be in Spain boffing my secretary than die of a brain hemorrage

But would you rather be remembered in history as the one that abandoned your daughter, or the one that stayed with her through thick and thin?

The women do get to retain their nobility upon exiting the show. Deaths are easy that way.

He was mourned, though

Doesn't make him dead. Just makes him mourned. I would mourn forcing my boyfriend to go to Australia under traumatic conditions, never mind somewhere without Internet access.

If he had been alive (not a vamp) when Buffy ran him through with the sword, gone to hell, and then come back, that probably would have counted as him dying and a resurrection, right?

Yeah. If Faith had died when Buffy stabbed her, that would have counted as her dying too. But she didn't, so we can't.

But would you rather be remembered in history as the one that abandoned your daughter, or the one that stayed with her through thick and thin?

I would rather be alive and with my daughter. If that wasn't an option? Then yeah, the good mommy award is ... good. And I think your point about death allowing for more nobility is a good one.

But Angelus killed Jenny because she was trying to resoul him. She didn't die in the heat of battle, but she was murdered because of her powers.

Mmmm... yeah, okay. The part where she was fleeing gives it a different vibe for me, though. (This should not be taken as a criticism of her decision to flee or skill in doing so, though it should be taken as a criticism of her decision to sit around after dark in a school that Angelus could enter rather than going the heck home. Silly woman.)

So ita, in your view, Angel can't count as having died, because he was dead to begin with, even though he went through something that would have been dying to anyone who was still alive, and capabable of dying?

Does Spike's immolation count as dying?

Good question, P-C. I would guess yes, under the theory that he, like Darla, got dusted, and the fact that he came back as a ghost.

The part where she was fleeing gives it a different vibe for me, though.

Yes, and that's why I think her heroism at the end can be debated.

It seems like most witches who aren't Willow, and possibly Tara or Amy, don't really have enough fire power to do anything *but* run when faced with a vamp. Given that, you're right she should have just. gone. home.

So ita, in your view, Angel can't count as having died, because he was dead to begin with, even though he went through something that would have been dying to anyone who was still alive, and capabable of dying?

And along with that, when she told Giles, Buffy said that she'd killed him. In her mind, she had. Even knowing he'd been in (small h) hell, I'm not sure she ever revised that opinion.

Actually, I think I see ita's point, and somewhat agree with it. Angel is a vamp. Vamps don't die unless they are dusted. Angel wasn't dusted, therefore he didn't die.

Everyone thought he died, and reacted as if he died, but they were acting on a faulty premise.

To go back to my original point - when I said women were the protagonists I was kind of using shorthand - the majority of characters you care about, and thus who are worth killing, in Buffy are women. You kill Hank - who fucking cares? With the exception of Xander and (after S3) Giles, all the characters you identified with were always women (OK, it's possible you were meant to relate to Spike in CWDP, but I choose to erase the memory of that farrago). The guys were totty of one kind or another, and thus less emotionally gripping. The show's about girls, and about girls becoming women. No matter how much Marti drifted from that mission statement, that's how Buffy started, that's how it ended. Everything big that happened in Buffy happened to girls.